AVADirect Clevo P170EM: Has AMD’s HD 7970M Got Game?
by Jarred Walton on October 2, 2012 1:35 PM ESTConclusion Part 1 – HD 7970M: It’s Getting Better
There are two items to discuss with this review, and I’ll start with AMD’s HD 7970M dGPU, with Enduro Technology. If I had just run with the initial impressions of the P170EM and HD 7970M without contacting AMD, my overall impression of the notebook would have been substantially worse. Buying a gaming notebook—which is the only reason I can see to purchase a notebook with an HD 7970M—and not being able to get regular graphics driver updates from the GPU manufacturer is a complete waste of time and money. I know quite a few people actually made that mistake, and for them all I can do is say that I can feel their pain—and I wrote about this last year and tried to warn people away from a then-broken Enduro/Dynamic Switchable Graphics/PowerXpress.
I understand the desire to support the underdogs of computer technology, and right now AMD’s mobile GPUs are definitely underdogs to NVIDIA’s Optimus enabled GPUs—not because they perform poorly, but without drivers you can pretty much guarantee there will be compatibility issues with future games. NVIDIA has been shipping Optimus GPUs for over 2.5 years now, and since May 2010 they’ve been delivering simultaneous driver updates for their entire product stack (except for their pre-Optimus switchable graphics solutions). AMD hasn’t had public reference drivers for their switchable graphics solutions or Enduro, and they’re only just now starting to address that problem. Even worse, the HD 7970M with Enduro enabled clearly has some performance issues—it’s really bad when NVIDIA’s previous generation GTX 580M/675M is often able to outperform the HD 7970M Enduro!
The good news is that AMD is actively working to address the driver and performance problems, and if they get all their ducks in a row we hopefully won’t see future problems with Enduro equipped notebooks. I would have liked to see this happen last year, but better late than never I suppose. As you can see from our testing, the upcoming Hotfix driver takes the HD 7970M from being way behind NVIDIA’s GTX 680M to only being 10-20% slower on average, and in some cases AMD is able to take a small lead. NVIDIA maintains the overall performance crown, but only with a substantially higher priced card (though I get the feeling they could easily drop prices if they felt more pressure from AMD). If you’re looking for a better value (which seems a dubious proposition on a $2000+ notebook, but I digress…), the HD 7970M will generally shave $300-$400 off the price of the P170EM compared to the GTX 680M, all while delivering around 85% of the performance. So you basically save 12% and lose about the same amount of performance.
There’s more to it than performance of course, and if I were in the market for a top-tier gaming notebook right now I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase a GTX 680M—either in the P170EM or in Alienware’s M17x R4—over the HD 7970M. As we said, AMD is working to address the problems with regular GPU driver updates as well as graphics performance, but they’re not finished yet. Besides, when you’re spending this much money, wouldn’t you want the fastest GPU? Within reason of course—I’m not at all a fan of SLI or CrossFire in notebooks, mostly because drivers, heat, and other wonkiness just get that much worse when you’re running two GPUs. Plus NVIDIA still has their PhysX card to play, and with Batman: Arkham City and Borderlands 2 both utilizing the technology to good effect, I like having that option available.
We’ll have more to say on the GPU side of things when we finish with part two where we look at the P170EM with a GTX 680M, but for now we’ll just say that AMD needs more time to prove that their Enduro drivers are ready and available for public consumption before we’ll recommend taking the plunge. Hopefully they’ll continue to improve things and by the end of the year, we may no longer need to worry about driver updates and can simply look at the performance and features offered by the various mobile GPUs.
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This_Account - Tuesday, October 2, 2012 - link
Hi, great article. It is a shame about the dual-link DVI though for sure.Quick question for you, does the USB 2.0 charge with the lid closed?
Cheers
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 2, 2012 - link
I assume you mean with the laptop in sleep mode? As far as I can tell, there is no USB charging mode, so no it will not.hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
No. But on the right side, there are 3 USB 3.0. The first one is charging. It has a battery charge indicator on it to let you know.JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
It's actually the left side with three USB 3.0 ports, and the front port does not have a charging symbol; rather, it has a USB symbol along with eSATA -- it's a combo port.MThorne74 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
... of laptop GPU performance. As pointed out, this thing has a user-upgradable GPU in it which allows you to swap out the graphics board much like you would on a desktop system. All you'd need is the 7970m and a 680m and whatever else you desire to compare. GPU focused performance comparisons would be much more precise then.JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
We've got the same laptop with 680M; I'm just running the tests still and did this one first.hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
P150EMThis may be a shock to Anandtech, but many like myself appreciate the design of the Clevo. Metal = Weight. These machines already weigh plenty, so I personally and many others like me agree, Clevo choosing plastic is good. The plastic does not feel cheap to me and it is thick and robust. There is no flex on it. As for hinges, not sure what else you want. The hinges on mine are covered by the thickest plastic I've seen on any laptop. Nothing thin about it. There is no flex around the hinges on my machine. I don't know why this article exaggerates the build quality, reading this, most will think it's cheap feel. And it's far from that.
Next: Comparisons are idiotic. This is a gaming machine. This is not a professional workstation, though you can modify to be, but really without a proper professional IPS display, better off getting a Dell/HP/Lenovo. So why bother comparing to those, those machines are military grade certified. As for Apple, those machines are made to look pretty on your coffee table. Clevo aren't make table decorations like Apple is. They aren't selling to moms and women or men who worry more about how thin and pretty their machine is than the hardware it comes with. 650M is not by any stretch impressive. Most gaming machines are plastic. Few have some metal, but very little, sparing on just small details to give it some panache. The laptop that took the mobile gaming industry by surprise was the G73JH, and that was all plastic. But that told manufactures, gamers want understated, black matte cases. And Clevo delivers. Even the latest iterations from MSI have calmed down their appearance significantly since the G73's release.
I love matte look, I don't want shiny metal. I prefer the rubberized surface, but I could deal with a brushed metal. These notebooks can be configured to have no logos, branding at all, which is awesome. I am not a billboard for Clevo, Apple, Dell, Lenovo.
Cost: These notebooks are really expensive. People who buy Clevo, buy it for the cost/performance. If you want a sci-fi look, get a Alienware. You want bling, get a MSI. If you want a stealth toy look, get a Asus. You want a Apple clone cause secretly you are envious of Macheads, get a Razer Blade. There are plenty of choices. I'd rather Clevo keep costs low on the case and pack it with hardware, options.
I've been typing on this machine for a long time and think the keyboard just takes adjusting to. This keyboard you do need to press more in the center or bottom, if you press on the edges or top, chance of missing keys. But since I'm used to it, I have no issues with the keyboard and can type as precisely and quickly as I could with my old IBM Thinkpad.
Some of your complaints with the keyboard are because you from the perspective of a writer. That's a problem, because this is not a machine designed for writers, it's a gaming machine. Take for example your ire with Windows key. Clevo did that on purpose. They enlarge the CTRL button which is used very often by gamers, whether its CS:GO or SC2. The removed the Windows because gamers complained of hitting unintentionally and sometimes causing to switch to desktop out of the game. I don't use End/Home often, even when using Word Processor or InDesign. I don't think that's a concern for most gamers.
Going forward you may want to write more in context of gaming and perspective of gamers when it comes to Clevo. I'd bet if you were to budget conscious gamers what they were most concerned about, metal casing and eye catching design would be near the bottom of the list. As long as the machine was well built, robust, and sturdy, they will be satisfied. And the Clevo does that.
JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
I disagree with most of your assessment of the build quality. ASUS has similar build quality and they charge quite a bit less (though they lack the top-end GPU options as well). Alienware has a combination of metal alloys (magnesium alloy possibly?) with plastic and the rubberized coating. Magnesium alloys are very lightweight, which is why they're used in higher end notebooks -- they're rigid, better than plastic, and about the same weight.The hinges aren't necessarily worse than other consumer laptops, but take a look at the ThinkPad hinges; they're not substantially more expensive to make, but I can tell you from experience that they last forever. I've used ThinkPads that are over seven years old where the hinges still hold up. The plastic covers are just that: covers. Look under them and you'll find a mediocre hinge. For the cost, I want it to have a hinge that I don't think is going to fail in a few years (or at least become very loose).
The keyboard still sucks, no matter how you want to mince words and try to say it's for gaming. The Windows key can be remapped/disabled easily enough if you want, and Clevo also has resellers that say this is a "mobile workstation" -- not that I really go for that classification, given the build materials and overall quality. Sure, the keyboard works, and yes I'm a writer, which is why I point that out in the text.
The fact is, a keyboard like the one on the Samsung Series 7 is better in just about every way. If Clevo took the same layout and had a look and feel similar to the Series 7, I wouldn't complain much, but it seriously feels like crap to me. If you don't care about keyboard quality, fine, but it's pathetic that a machine this expensive has such a lousy keyboard. MSI's keyboard has the same layout but feels worlds better. And it's funny you try to slag off my complaints about the lack of dedicated Home and End keys... but how often do you use Insert, Pause, or Scroll Lock? Literally, it's about a ten second fix from a design perspective (and yes, I know you can remap keys, but then the labels are wrong so it's better done by the manufacturer).
The Clevo is not a bad machine by any stretch; it's just not at the same level as some other gaming notebooks. If I were in the market, I'd wait for one of Dell's frequent sales and buy an Alienware M17x. It's just better in pretty much every way, with better support from the manufacturer as well. Clevo's support (particularly in the form of BIOS updates) is terrible -- they don't trust users to flash a BIOS, so they don't provide them. And yet, they have battery life that's just as bad as if they didn't bother with Enduro/Optimus. It's a half-baked attempt, no matter how you slice it.
The primary reason to buy a Clevo is because it's less expensive and more customizable than an Alienware, and it has fast hardware. I understand that's enough for most people, and hopefully after reading this review they'll be able to decide that for themselves.
To say that my comparisons are "idiotic" because I mention Samsung as a slower alternative with a higher build quality, or ASUS, MSI, and Alienware... well, you're entitled to your opinion, but considering you already purchased a Clevo I'd have to say your opinion is more than a little biased. I'm writing from the perspective of someone that has used and tested dozens of laptops just in the last year; I try to put all my reviews into that context and let readers know where a particular notebook ranks. The Clevo is one of the fastest (if not the fastest) gaming notebooks around. For the performance, the pricing is pretty reasonable (but not great). For the pricing the build quality and overall design is about on the level of a midrange consumer notebook, only with a thicker chassis and bigger fans. And the keyboard is still one of the worst I've used. Some people like Acer's old floating island keys too; the general consensus however is that they were terrible.
hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
Not really biased at all. My previous machine was a Asus G73JH and I like my Clevo more in every way, from the design, cooling, hardware, LCD, and even the keyboard.I think you should spend more time in the Clevo/Sager forum where people actually buy and discuss them. Your perspective on these machines and your preferences are pretty off base. I don't think you understand the market that Clevo is going for.
As for price, Sager beats MSI and Asus handidly. The base price for my machine with a GTX 675M is $1300. Asus can't beat that even with a GTX 670M, inferior hardware. Plus Asus is not upgradeable and can't even access the GPU easily.
As for Alienware's sales? Please, they can't come close to the price of Sager still. Unlike Allienware, you don't have to barter with a sales rep and Sager's discounts are 24/7 all year round. What discounts did I get with my Sager? $80 off+3% cash discount and free shipping on top of a price that already beat anything offered by MSI/Asus/Alienware for the hardware I specified.
As for comparisons I think I spelled it out pretty clear how idiotic they were. You were comparing to Dell and Lenovo. For one they build workstations that are military grade certified. And the XPS 15 is not a high end gaming machine, that is a boutique machine competing with other Mac clones. And the Samsung Series 7 is not in the same category with Clevo and Alienware. The only two companies that make sense to compare is Alienware and MSI. When it comes to dependability and having your machine last, no problems. These things are built like tanks, there are users who bought X7200 with HD5870s and now upgrading them to 7970s. That's damn good quality of build to me. 30% of laptops don't even last 3 years and for many expect their Clevo to last 5.
As for service on a Clevo? Unmatched, no one can beat Clevo. If you go with a Clevo builder Mythlogic, you won't get a more technical proficient, better interaction and service by ANY company. Mythlogic has repeatedly reach out to Clevo owners who weren't even their customers. All it takes is a few minutes to post on a forum and they are ready to help. Sager, yeah I had an issue, and it was free 3 day shipping both ways and laptop fixed in 2 days and returned, I had it back in 1.5 weeks. Give me a break about service. As for BIOS, yeah that's laughable. If you actually spent time on a Clevo/Sager forum you'd see every laptop has had countless BIOS updates. I've only owned this machine for about 4-5 months and I've already updated the BIOS 3 times. No BIOS updates? Who are you kidding. And if I bork the BIOS update? Clevo doesn't care, you get that fixed, no questions asked. That sure doesn't like they don't trust us. Far from it, to the point they will repair your notebook without question if you borked it with a BIOS update.
JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
Where do I "compare" this with the XPS 15? I say there are laptops like XPS 15 and MacBook that do unibody aluminum, that it costs more, and that's it. You're trying to make comparisons that aren't really there, which just shows your bias all the more. And talking to people in the Sager/Clevo forums is again asking for biased feedback; sure, it's important to please those users, but the market for laptops is huge and Clevo targets a very small niche. All I've done is spelled out exactly how this design fails to cater to other desires, and you apparently can't accept that and resort to calling me "idiotic".Sure, the base price for your machine is $1300; the base price for an M17x R4 is $1500. That's a 15% difference in price, with better build quality and materials in my book, so yes it's close to the Sager pricing. When Dell runs a 10% off sale on it, it would be basically a wash in terms of pricing. Meanwhile the base price of the MSI from iBUYPOWER is $1371 (5% more), and I'd have no problem suggesting you spend $70 more to get the MSI chassis in place of the Clevo if you want a better keyboard. The ASUS also starts at $1400 (8% more), but with specs on many components that are higher than the base Sager. Clearly, you and I have very different views on what it means to "beat a price handily".
Sager or one of the other vendors may end up costing less most of the time, especially with upgrades, but spending 20% more on a high-end notebook isn't out of the realm of possibility. Plus if we're looking at features and extras, Alienware has the option in the BIOS to switch off Enduro/Optimus. That requires extra hardware on the motherboard, which costs money, and there are a lot of Clevo owners with 7970M that wish they had that feature right now.
Are BIOS updates available for Clevo notebooks? Yes. Are they supported by Clevo if they go wrong and you need to get it repaired? Sure, if it's under warranty. Do they provide them on their site to the general public? NO. So you have to go through unofficial channels to get a BIOS update, which may or may not work. Or if you want to prove me wrong, give me a link to the official places where these countless BIOS updates are available.
Hint: a thread on Notebookreview forums with modded BIOSes does not qualify: http://forum.notebookreview.com/sager-clevo/416916... -- just read the disclaimer: "Before reading this thread, please know that this thread should not exist in the first place. While the option to email your Clevo reseller and ask for the latest BIOS is considered now the official policy of obtaining the latest BIOS, it should be noted that Clevo is the only major notebook manufacturer that has such a policy. My opinion alongside that of other users which have posted in this thread is that a reputable notebook manufacturer like Clevo should make BIOS updates publically available." Yup, my comments about Clevo's lack of BIOS updates is laughable, just like your blindness.
I'm sorry if my review offended you and your decision to buy a Clevo. That wasn't the purpose, and I still don't think it's a bad system. It's just not great and it's not something I can recommend to people without some caveats. I spelled out my caveats quite clearly, listed things I feel could be improved, and all you've done is said, in essence, that you disagree with the areas I dislike. You can do so (and you already have with your wallet), but I think there are a lot of considerations to make before buying any $1500+ gaming notebook. Then again, I still do my gaming on desktops 95% of the time.