AVADirect Clevo P170EM: Has AMD’s HD 7970M Got Game?
by Jarred Walton on October 2, 2012 1:35 PM ESTConclusion Part 2 – AVADirect’s Clevo P170EM: Win Some, Lose Some
The second part of our review is the Clevo P170EM notebook, specifically AVADirect’s Clevo P170EM Gaming Notebook, and there are lots of elements to discuss. As noted earlier, the primary competition at the high end right now is the Alienware M17x R4, or if you don’t care about the HD 7970M you can also look at MSI’s GT70 aka the iBUYPOWER Valkyrie CZ-17. Beyond those, there are a few other notebooks like Samsung’s Series 7 and the ASUS G75 that are worth a look as they can still offer “fast enough” performance for most gamers at much lower prices. Let’s take those notebooks in turns.
Dustin railed on Dell/Alienware a bit in the M17x R4 review for not updating the design and resting on their laurels; that’s a legitimate concern, but I have to say that even without any noteworthy external updates, I prefer the look and overall feel of the M17x. I won’t go so far as to say Alienware’s M17x keyboard is perfect, but the layout is definitely more to my liking than the P170EM/GT70 layouts, and the zoned backlighting is simply more elegant. I also prefer the Alienware design and aesthetic, though I wish they offered a non-glossy display. Another plus is that Alienware offers the option to disable the switchable graphics within their BIOS (via software controlled muxes), so if you don’t want to bother with AMD’s Enduro or NVIDIA’s Optimus you have that choice—all of my griping about drivers for the HD 7970M basically goes away if you’re running the M17x R4 in discrete-only GPU mode. The one major problem with the M17x R4 is pricing, as similar components will generally cost around 20% more than on the P170EM (and Alienware generally charges a lot more for upgrades to RAM and storage), but if you’ve got enough money to buy a Clevo P170EM it shouldn’t be too hard to make up the difference.
MSI’s GT70 is a different story, as the overall design is in many ways similar to Clevo’s P170EM—which is a nice way of saying that both notebooks use a lot of plastic and can look a bit chintzy. The keyboard action is better on the GT70, and I definitely prefer their chiclet keys to whatever you want to call Clevo’s new key style, but the layout has the same issues as the P170EM (no dedicated Home/End keys, missing context key, misplaced Windows key, and two backslash keys). Pricing from iBUYPOWER is good; you can get a 240GB SSD, 16GB RAM, Ultimate-N 6300 WiFi, a 1080p matte LCD (similar to the matte panel we tested with the P170EM, if not identical), and an i7-3720QM all for about $100 less than the AVADirect configuration. About the only item you clearly lose is the DVI port.
As for less expensive but slower gaming notebooks, the lower end Samsung Series 7 looks great and has the best keyboard of the bunch (by far in my opinion), but the storage configuration from Samsung is lacking and the GT 650M GPU is about half as fast as the HD 7970M. There are also issues with CPU/GPU throttling under sustained heavy workloads. That Series 7 can be had for around $1400 and it looks nice, and if you don’t really need a GTX 680M or HD 7970M it’s certainly worth considering; however, it's not really fit for 1080p gaming at max details. Samsung also offers a higher spec Series 7 that's completely different from the above; it goes for a wedge-shaped chassis similar to the ASUS G75 and includes two 750GB HDDs, 16GB RAM, and a GTX 675M, now for a reasonably low price of $1680.
And last we have the ASUS G75VW, which you can get with a GTX 670M, 12GB RAM, and a 500GB HDD (then add your own 256GB SSD for under $200—and the Samsung 830 is likely to drop further with the introduction of the Samsung 840 SSDs). Like Samsung, ASUS is sporting a last-gen Fermi GPU that can still handle 1080p gaming fairly well, and it's definitely faster than the GT 650M or GTX 660M GPUs in other "almost gaming" notebooks, but it also draws more power than Kepler based parts that offer similar performance.
What I'd like to see is ASUS and Samsung update the GPU to the GTX 670MX/675MX (GK106), as that’s probably the best bang for the buck you’re likely to see from a gaming notebook (though we haven’t been able to test that GPU yet, so we can only give a partial recommendation). And yes, you can get the new GK106 GPUs in the Clevo P170EM now; they're priced similarly to the HD 7970M.
So where does that leave AVADirect with their Clevo P170EM? First, I have to reiterate that I found the typing experience on the new Clevo keyboard to be particularly bad—it’s one of the worst keyboards I’ve used in a while. It’s a very subjective statement I know, so take it for what it’s worth, but typing on the P170EM is worse in my book than the previous generation P170HM (even with the messed up 10-key); in fact, it’s nearly as bad as Acer’s “floating island” keys. For people that type even a moderate amount on their notebook, I can’t imagine most will be pleased with the P170EM keyboard. If all you're looking for is a gaming notebook however, you should be fine, but this shouldn't be that hard to get right.
For all my complaints about the keyboard, touchpad, battery life, and overall aesthetic, the Clevo P170EM excels when it comes to performance and configuration options. Our stress testing is brutal, and to have the P170EM complete over two hours of 100% load testing with no throttling evident is a nice change of pace after what I've experienced with lesser offerings. If you need a notebook/mobile workstation that can handle running computationally intensive workloads for long periods of time, the P170EM is ready for you. The display options from Clevo are also quite nice; AVADirect currently lists three different 1080p displays (glossy, matte, and high gamut glossy), and all three options perform reasonably well; I’d personally go for the matte surface, but some people prefer glossy and that’s fine. The connectivity options are good as well (three USB 3.0, eSATA, FireWire, DisplayPort, HDMI, and DVI), though I’m not a big fan of all the ports on the rear as they can be difficult to reach.
Customization options are really one of the highlights of Clevo builds in general, as most vendors let you decide exactly what you want to put in them. Do you want a 256GB mSATA OS/Apps drive with a 1TB HDD for mass storage? Done. Or keep the mSATA drive but go with RAID 0 hard drives, or even RAID 0 SSDs. Or perhaps you'd like to start with just the mSATA SSD and then add additional storage when you need it—and in another six months, SSDs like Samsung's new 840 series with TLC NAND could very well push into the $0.50/GB range. I can say the same for RAM, GPUs, LCDs, and even WiFi adapters and optical drives. You get to build exactly what you want, rather than letter some huge corporation decide what's best.
Ultimately, the Clevo P170EM is a good gaming notebook but it has some a few flaws and quirks that may or may not bother you. I can say the same for the Alienware, MSI, Samsung, and ASUS notebooks mentioned above—they all involve some form of compromise. If speed is your primary concern, Clevo certainly has that, and with the right components it can be a great choice; just don't expect perfection and if you can, try one out in person before pulling the trigger. If you decide a Clevo P170EM is the right notebook for you, there are quite a few vendors willing to sell you one.
AVADirect has their no-naming-nonsense Clevo P170EM Gaming Notebook, and they offer a ton of other configuration options (perhaps too many, some might say—I wish there were an easy way to restrict certain component choices, e.g. only show 8GB RAM options, or only show 240-256GB SSDs). If you know exactly what type of hardware you want to put in your new notebook, there’s a good chance they can accommodate you. What's nice with boutique vendors like AVADirect is that there’s none of the “component of the day” specials that routinely appear with larger OEMs, where you can find several different panels, HDDs/SSDs, RAM, etc. and what you get basically comes down to whatever is cheapest around the time you place your order. You can get roughly the same build as our review unit with a matte LCD and an update to the new i7-3740QM CPU for $2033 (and that includes $13 for the upgraded thermal compound, which isn’t an option at some of the other resellers).
Looking elsewhere, Sager Notebooks offer the NP9170 with the same components as the AVADirect for $2089, so $56 more, but they’re currently running a $100 discount that makes them a slightly less expensive option. Sager doesn’t overwhelm you with options on most of their parts either, which can be good or bad depending on what you’re after. iBUYPOWER has the Valkyrie P170EM with i7-3720QM (likely to be updated soon to the i7-3740QM) and an ADATA 256GB SSD for $1943, so you can save a bit of money if you’re willing to give up the matte LCD and some of the SSD/RAM choices. XoticPC offers the Sager NP9170 as well, at the same price (AFAICT) but with a cash discount option. They’re also the only place where I can still find a matte 72% gamut LCD option (though it’s a hefty $149 upgrade from the standard matte LCD—note that this is apparently the matte panel we tested, though it was initially supposed to be 90% gamut). Finally—and I know I skipped some other vendors—ProStar sells the P170EM with the same basic configuration for $2119 (with the option for a cash discount) and Origin has their EON17-S going for $2241 (with the option for a custom top panel that other vendors lack)
Most of the vendors (including AVADirect) offer similar configurations, and I’m not sure that any of these companies are clearly better or worse than the others. WIth prices and component options changing on a regular basis, if you have your heart set on a Clevo P170EM notebook it can’t hurt to shop around.
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This_Account - Tuesday, October 2, 2012 - link
Hi, great article. It is a shame about the dual-link DVI though for sure.Quick question for you, does the USB 2.0 charge with the lid closed?
Cheers
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 2, 2012 - link
I assume you mean with the laptop in sleep mode? As far as I can tell, there is no USB charging mode, so no it will not.hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
No. But on the right side, there are 3 USB 3.0. The first one is charging. It has a battery charge indicator on it to let you know.JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
It's actually the left side with three USB 3.0 ports, and the front port does not have a charging symbol; rather, it has a USB symbol along with eSATA -- it's a combo port.MThorne74 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
... of laptop GPU performance. As pointed out, this thing has a user-upgradable GPU in it which allows you to swap out the graphics board much like you would on a desktop system. All you'd need is the 7970m and a 680m and whatever else you desire to compare. GPU focused performance comparisons would be much more precise then.JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
We've got the same laptop with 680M; I'm just running the tests still and did this one first.hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
P150EMThis may be a shock to Anandtech, but many like myself appreciate the design of the Clevo. Metal = Weight. These machines already weigh plenty, so I personally and many others like me agree, Clevo choosing plastic is good. The plastic does not feel cheap to me and it is thick and robust. There is no flex on it. As for hinges, not sure what else you want. The hinges on mine are covered by the thickest plastic I've seen on any laptop. Nothing thin about it. There is no flex around the hinges on my machine. I don't know why this article exaggerates the build quality, reading this, most will think it's cheap feel. And it's far from that.
Next: Comparisons are idiotic. This is a gaming machine. This is not a professional workstation, though you can modify to be, but really without a proper professional IPS display, better off getting a Dell/HP/Lenovo. So why bother comparing to those, those machines are military grade certified. As for Apple, those machines are made to look pretty on your coffee table. Clevo aren't make table decorations like Apple is. They aren't selling to moms and women or men who worry more about how thin and pretty their machine is than the hardware it comes with. 650M is not by any stretch impressive. Most gaming machines are plastic. Few have some metal, but very little, sparing on just small details to give it some panache. The laptop that took the mobile gaming industry by surprise was the G73JH, and that was all plastic. But that told manufactures, gamers want understated, black matte cases. And Clevo delivers. Even the latest iterations from MSI have calmed down their appearance significantly since the G73's release.
I love matte look, I don't want shiny metal. I prefer the rubberized surface, but I could deal with a brushed metal. These notebooks can be configured to have no logos, branding at all, which is awesome. I am not a billboard for Clevo, Apple, Dell, Lenovo.
Cost: These notebooks are really expensive. People who buy Clevo, buy it for the cost/performance. If you want a sci-fi look, get a Alienware. You want bling, get a MSI. If you want a stealth toy look, get a Asus. You want a Apple clone cause secretly you are envious of Macheads, get a Razer Blade. There are plenty of choices. I'd rather Clevo keep costs low on the case and pack it with hardware, options.
I've been typing on this machine for a long time and think the keyboard just takes adjusting to. This keyboard you do need to press more in the center or bottom, if you press on the edges or top, chance of missing keys. But since I'm used to it, I have no issues with the keyboard and can type as precisely and quickly as I could with my old IBM Thinkpad.
Some of your complaints with the keyboard are because you from the perspective of a writer. That's a problem, because this is not a machine designed for writers, it's a gaming machine. Take for example your ire with Windows key. Clevo did that on purpose. They enlarge the CTRL button which is used very often by gamers, whether its CS:GO or SC2. The removed the Windows because gamers complained of hitting unintentionally and sometimes causing to switch to desktop out of the game. I don't use End/Home often, even when using Word Processor or InDesign. I don't think that's a concern for most gamers.
Going forward you may want to write more in context of gaming and perspective of gamers when it comes to Clevo. I'd bet if you were to budget conscious gamers what they were most concerned about, metal casing and eye catching design would be near the bottom of the list. As long as the machine was well built, robust, and sturdy, they will be satisfied. And the Clevo does that.
JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
I disagree with most of your assessment of the build quality. ASUS has similar build quality and they charge quite a bit less (though they lack the top-end GPU options as well). Alienware has a combination of metal alloys (magnesium alloy possibly?) with plastic and the rubberized coating. Magnesium alloys are very lightweight, which is why they're used in higher end notebooks -- they're rigid, better than plastic, and about the same weight.The hinges aren't necessarily worse than other consumer laptops, but take a look at the ThinkPad hinges; they're not substantially more expensive to make, but I can tell you from experience that they last forever. I've used ThinkPads that are over seven years old where the hinges still hold up. The plastic covers are just that: covers. Look under them and you'll find a mediocre hinge. For the cost, I want it to have a hinge that I don't think is going to fail in a few years (or at least become very loose).
The keyboard still sucks, no matter how you want to mince words and try to say it's for gaming. The Windows key can be remapped/disabled easily enough if you want, and Clevo also has resellers that say this is a "mobile workstation" -- not that I really go for that classification, given the build materials and overall quality. Sure, the keyboard works, and yes I'm a writer, which is why I point that out in the text.
The fact is, a keyboard like the one on the Samsung Series 7 is better in just about every way. If Clevo took the same layout and had a look and feel similar to the Series 7, I wouldn't complain much, but it seriously feels like crap to me. If you don't care about keyboard quality, fine, but it's pathetic that a machine this expensive has such a lousy keyboard. MSI's keyboard has the same layout but feels worlds better. And it's funny you try to slag off my complaints about the lack of dedicated Home and End keys... but how often do you use Insert, Pause, or Scroll Lock? Literally, it's about a ten second fix from a design perspective (and yes, I know you can remap keys, but then the labels are wrong so it's better done by the manufacturer).
The Clevo is not a bad machine by any stretch; it's just not at the same level as some other gaming notebooks. If I were in the market, I'd wait for one of Dell's frequent sales and buy an Alienware M17x. It's just better in pretty much every way, with better support from the manufacturer as well. Clevo's support (particularly in the form of BIOS updates) is terrible -- they don't trust users to flash a BIOS, so they don't provide them. And yet, they have battery life that's just as bad as if they didn't bother with Enduro/Optimus. It's a half-baked attempt, no matter how you slice it.
The primary reason to buy a Clevo is because it's less expensive and more customizable than an Alienware, and it has fast hardware. I understand that's enough for most people, and hopefully after reading this review they'll be able to decide that for themselves.
To say that my comparisons are "idiotic" because I mention Samsung as a slower alternative with a higher build quality, or ASUS, MSI, and Alienware... well, you're entitled to your opinion, but considering you already purchased a Clevo I'd have to say your opinion is more than a little biased. I'm writing from the perspective of someone that has used and tested dozens of laptops just in the last year; I try to put all my reviews into that context and let readers know where a particular notebook ranks. The Clevo is one of the fastest (if not the fastest) gaming notebooks around. For the performance, the pricing is pretty reasonable (but not great). For the pricing the build quality and overall design is about on the level of a midrange consumer notebook, only with a thicker chassis and bigger fans. And the keyboard is still one of the worst I've used. Some people like Acer's old floating island keys too; the general consensus however is that they were terrible.
hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
Not really biased at all. My previous machine was a Asus G73JH and I like my Clevo more in every way, from the design, cooling, hardware, LCD, and even the keyboard.I think you should spend more time in the Clevo/Sager forum where people actually buy and discuss them. Your perspective on these machines and your preferences are pretty off base. I don't think you understand the market that Clevo is going for.
As for price, Sager beats MSI and Asus handidly. The base price for my machine with a GTX 675M is $1300. Asus can't beat that even with a GTX 670M, inferior hardware. Plus Asus is not upgradeable and can't even access the GPU easily.
As for Alienware's sales? Please, they can't come close to the price of Sager still. Unlike Allienware, you don't have to barter with a sales rep and Sager's discounts are 24/7 all year round. What discounts did I get with my Sager? $80 off+3% cash discount and free shipping on top of a price that already beat anything offered by MSI/Asus/Alienware for the hardware I specified.
As for comparisons I think I spelled it out pretty clear how idiotic they were. You were comparing to Dell and Lenovo. For one they build workstations that are military grade certified. And the XPS 15 is not a high end gaming machine, that is a boutique machine competing with other Mac clones. And the Samsung Series 7 is not in the same category with Clevo and Alienware. The only two companies that make sense to compare is Alienware and MSI. When it comes to dependability and having your machine last, no problems. These things are built like tanks, there are users who bought X7200 with HD5870s and now upgrading them to 7970s. That's damn good quality of build to me. 30% of laptops don't even last 3 years and for many expect their Clevo to last 5.
As for service on a Clevo? Unmatched, no one can beat Clevo. If you go with a Clevo builder Mythlogic, you won't get a more technical proficient, better interaction and service by ANY company. Mythlogic has repeatedly reach out to Clevo owners who weren't even their customers. All it takes is a few minutes to post on a forum and they are ready to help. Sager, yeah I had an issue, and it was free 3 day shipping both ways and laptop fixed in 2 days and returned, I had it back in 1.5 weeks. Give me a break about service. As for BIOS, yeah that's laughable. If you actually spent time on a Clevo/Sager forum you'd see every laptop has had countless BIOS updates. I've only owned this machine for about 4-5 months and I've already updated the BIOS 3 times. No BIOS updates? Who are you kidding. And if I bork the BIOS update? Clevo doesn't care, you get that fixed, no questions asked. That sure doesn't like they don't trust us. Far from it, to the point they will repair your notebook without question if you borked it with a BIOS update.
JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
Where do I "compare" this with the XPS 15? I say there are laptops like XPS 15 and MacBook that do unibody aluminum, that it costs more, and that's it. You're trying to make comparisons that aren't really there, which just shows your bias all the more. And talking to people in the Sager/Clevo forums is again asking for biased feedback; sure, it's important to please those users, but the market for laptops is huge and Clevo targets a very small niche. All I've done is spelled out exactly how this design fails to cater to other desires, and you apparently can't accept that and resort to calling me "idiotic".Sure, the base price for your machine is $1300; the base price for an M17x R4 is $1500. That's a 15% difference in price, with better build quality and materials in my book, so yes it's close to the Sager pricing. When Dell runs a 10% off sale on it, it would be basically a wash in terms of pricing. Meanwhile the base price of the MSI from iBUYPOWER is $1371 (5% more), and I'd have no problem suggesting you spend $70 more to get the MSI chassis in place of the Clevo if you want a better keyboard. The ASUS also starts at $1400 (8% more), but with specs on many components that are higher than the base Sager. Clearly, you and I have very different views on what it means to "beat a price handily".
Sager or one of the other vendors may end up costing less most of the time, especially with upgrades, but spending 20% more on a high-end notebook isn't out of the realm of possibility. Plus if we're looking at features and extras, Alienware has the option in the BIOS to switch off Enduro/Optimus. That requires extra hardware on the motherboard, which costs money, and there are a lot of Clevo owners with 7970M that wish they had that feature right now.
Are BIOS updates available for Clevo notebooks? Yes. Are they supported by Clevo if they go wrong and you need to get it repaired? Sure, if it's under warranty. Do they provide them on their site to the general public? NO. So you have to go through unofficial channels to get a BIOS update, which may or may not work. Or if you want to prove me wrong, give me a link to the official places where these countless BIOS updates are available.
Hint: a thread on Notebookreview forums with modded BIOSes does not qualify: http://forum.notebookreview.com/sager-clevo/416916... -- just read the disclaimer: "Before reading this thread, please know that this thread should not exist in the first place. While the option to email your Clevo reseller and ask for the latest BIOS is considered now the official policy of obtaining the latest BIOS, it should be noted that Clevo is the only major notebook manufacturer that has such a policy. My opinion alongside that of other users which have posted in this thread is that a reputable notebook manufacturer like Clevo should make BIOS updates publically available." Yup, my comments about Clevo's lack of BIOS updates is laughable, just like your blindness.
I'm sorry if my review offended you and your decision to buy a Clevo. That wasn't the purpose, and I still don't think it's a bad system. It's just not great and it's not something I can recommend to people without some caveats. I spelled out my caveats quite clearly, listed things I feel could be improved, and all you've done is said, in essence, that you disagree with the areas I dislike. You can do so (and you already have with your wallet), but I think there are a lot of considerations to make before buying any $1500+ gaming notebook. Then again, I still do my gaming on desktops 95% of the time.