AVADirect Clevo P170EM: Has AMD’s HD 7970M Got Game?
by Jarred Walton on October 2, 2012 1:35 PM ESTConclusion Part 2 – AVADirect’s Clevo P170EM: Win Some, Lose Some
The second part of our review is the Clevo P170EM notebook, specifically AVADirect’s Clevo P170EM Gaming Notebook, and there are lots of elements to discuss. As noted earlier, the primary competition at the high end right now is the Alienware M17x R4, or if you don’t care about the HD 7970M you can also look at MSI’s GT70 aka the iBUYPOWER Valkyrie CZ-17. Beyond those, there are a few other notebooks like Samsung’s Series 7 and the ASUS G75 that are worth a look as they can still offer “fast enough” performance for most gamers at much lower prices. Let’s take those notebooks in turns.
Dustin railed on Dell/Alienware a bit in the M17x R4 review for not updating the design and resting on their laurels; that’s a legitimate concern, but I have to say that even without any noteworthy external updates, I prefer the look and overall feel of the M17x. I won’t go so far as to say Alienware’s M17x keyboard is perfect, but the layout is definitely more to my liking than the P170EM/GT70 layouts, and the zoned backlighting is simply more elegant. I also prefer the Alienware design and aesthetic, though I wish they offered a non-glossy display. Another plus is that Alienware offers the option to disable the switchable graphics within their BIOS (via software controlled muxes), so if you don’t want to bother with AMD’s Enduro or NVIDIA’s Optimus you have that choice—all of my griping about drivers for the HD 7970M basically goes away if you’re running the M17x R4 in discrete-only GPU mode. The one major problem with the M17x R4 is pricing, as similar components will generally cost around 20% more than on the P170EM (and Alienware generally charges a lot more for upgrades to RAM and storage), but if you’ve got enough money to buy a Clevo P170EM it shouldn’t be too hard to make up the difference.
MSI’s GT70 is a different story, as the overall design is in many ways similar to Clevo’s P170EM—which is a nice way of saying that both notebooks use a lot of plastic and can look a bit chintzy. The keyboard action is better on the GT70, and I definitely prefer their chiclet keys to whatever you want to call Clevo’s new key style, but the layout has the same issues as the P170EM (no dedicated Home/End keys, missing context key, misplaced Windows key, and two backslash keys). Pricing from iBUYPOWER is good; you can get a 240GB SSD, 16GB RAM, Ultimate-N 6300 WiFi, a 1080p matte LCD (similar to the matte panel we tested with the P170EM, if not identical), and an i7-3720QM all for about $100 less than the AVADirect configuration. About the only item you clearly lose is the DVI port.
As for less expensive but slower gaming notebooks, the lower end Samsung Series 7 looks great and has the best keyboard of the bunch (by far in my opinion), but the storage configuration from Samsung is lacking and the GT 650M GPU is about half as fast as the HD 7970M. There are also issues with CPU/GPU throttling under sustained heavy workloads. That Series 7 can be had for around $1400 and it looks nice, and if you don’t really need a GTX 680M or HD 7970M it’s certainly worth considering; however, it's not really fit for 1080p gaming at max details. Samsung also offers a higher spec Series 7 that's completely different from the above; it goes for a wedge-shaped chassis similar to the ASUS G75 and includes two 750GB HDDs, 16GB RAM, and a GTX 675M, now for a reasonably low price of $1680.
And last we have the ASUS G75VW, which you can get with a GTX 670M, 12GB RAM, and a 500GB HDD (then add your own 256GB SSD for under $200—and the Samsung 830 is likely to drop further with the introduction of the Samsung 840 SSDs). Like Samsung, ASUS is sporting a last-gen Fermi GPU that can still handle 1080p gaming fairly well, and it's definitely faster than the GT 650M or GTX 660M GPUs in other "almost gaming" notebooks, but it also draws more power than Kepler based parts that offer similar performance.
What I'd like to see is ASUS and Samsung update the GPU to the GTX 670MX/675MX (GK106), as that’s probably the best bang for the buck you’re likely to see from a gaming notebook (though we haven’t been able to test that GPU yet, so we can only give a partial recommendation). And yes, you can get the new GK106 GPUs in the Clevo P170EM now; they're priced similarly to the HD 7970M.
So where does that leave AVADirect with their Clevo P170EM? First, I have to reiterate that I found the typing experience on the new Clevo keyboard to be particularly bad—it’s one of the worst keyboards I’ve used in a while. It’s a very subjective statement I know, so take it for what it’s worth, but typing on the P170EM is worse in my book than the previous generation P170HM (even with the messed up 10-key); in fact, it’s nearly as bad as Acer’s “floating island” keys. For people that type even a moderate amount on their notebook, I can’t imagine most will be pleased with the P170EM keyboard. If all you're looking for is a gaming notebook however, you should be fine, but this shouldn't be that hard to get right.
For all my complaints about the keyboard, touchpad, battery life, and overall aesthetic, the Clevo P170EM excels when it comes to performance and configuration options. Our stress testing is brutal, and to have the P170EM complete over two hours of 100% load testing with no throttling evident is a nice change of pace after what I've experienced with lesser offerings. If you need a notebook/mobile workstation that can handle running computationally intensive workloads for long periods of time, the P170EM is ready for you. The display options from Clevo are also quite nice; AVADirect currently lists three different 1080p displays (glossy, matte, and high gamut glossy), and all three options perform reasonably well; I’d personally go for the matte surface, but some people prefer glossy and that’s fine. The connectivity options are good as well (three USB 3.0, eSATA, FireWire, DisplayPort, HDMI, and DVI), though I’m not a big fan of all the ports on the rear as they can be difficult to reach.
Customization options are really one of the highlights of Clevo builds in general, as most vendors let you decide exactly what you want to put in them. Do you want a 256GB mSATA OS/Apps drive with a 1TB HDD for mass storage? Done. Or keep the mSATA drive but go with RAID 0 hard drives, or even RAID 0 SSDs. Or perhaps you'd like to start with just the mSATA SSD and then add additional storage when you need it—and in another six months, SSDs like Samsung's new 840 series with TLC NAND could very well push into the $0.50/GB range. I can say the same for RAM, GPUs, LCDs, and even WiFi adapters and optical drives. You get to build exactly what you want, rather than letter some huge corporation decide what's best.
Ultimately, the Clevo P170EM is a good gaming notebook but it has some a few flaws and quirks that may or may not bother you. I can say the same for the Alienware, MSI, Samsung, and ASUS notebooks mentioned above—they all involve some form of compromise. If speed is your primary concern, Clevo certainly has that, and with the right components it can be a great choice; just don't expect perfection and if you can, try one out in person before pulling the trigger. If you decide a Clevo P170EM is the right notebook for you, there are quite a few vendors willing to sell you one.
AVADirect has their no-naming-nonsense Clevo P170EM Gaming Notebook, and they offer a ton of other configuration options (perhaps too many, some might say—I wish there were an easy way to restrict certain component choices, e.g. only show 8GB RAM options, or only show 240-256GB SSDs). If you know exactly what type of hardware you want to put in your new notebook, there’s a good chance they can accommodate you. What's nice with boutique vendors like AVADirect is that there’s none of the “component of the day” specials that routinely appear with larger OEMs, where you can find several different panels, HDDs/SSDs, RAM, etc. and what you get basically comes down to whatever is cheapest around the time you place your order. You can get roughly the same build as our review unit with a matte LCD and an update to the new i7-3740QM CPU for $2033 (and that includes $13 for the upgraded thermal compound, which isn’t an option at some of the other resellers).
Looking elsewhere, Sager Notebooks offer the NP9170 with the same components as the AVADirect for $2089, so $56 more, but they’re currently running a $100 discount that makes them a slightly less expensive option. Sager doesn’t overwhelm you with options on most of their parts either, which can be good or bad depending on what you’re after. iBUYPOWER has the Valkyrie P170EM with i7-3720QM (likely to be updated soon to the i7-3740QM) and an ADATA 256GB SSD for $1943, so you can save a bit of money if you’re willing to give up the matte LCD and some of the SSD/RAM choices. XoticPC offers the Sager NP9170 as well, at the same price (AFAICT) but with a cash discount option. They’re also the only place where I can still find a matte 72% gamut LCD option (though it’s a hefty $149 upgrade from the standard matte LCD—note that this is apparently the matte panel we tested, though it was initially supposed to be 90% gamut). Finally—and I know I skipped some other vendors—ProStar sells the P170EM with the same basic configuration for $2119 (with the option for a cash discount) and Origin has their EON17-S going for $2241 (with the option for a custom top panel that other vendors lack)
Most of the vendors (including AVADirect) offer similar configurations, and I’m not sure that any of these companies are clearly better or worse than the others. WIth prices and component options changing on a regular basis, if you have your heart set on a Clevo P170EM notebook it can’t hurt to shop around.
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hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
You are so ignorant of the Sager/Clevo forum, it's rather sad. The BIOS that are posted are not modded, they are the official, vanilla Clevo BIOS. Clevo does no sell direct like HP, Alienware, Dell, etc do. The tech support is provided by the builders, and the BIOS also. The modded BIOS are actually the ones from the OEM, like Sager who ask Clevo for specific changes, like a FN+1 for full fan speed. Emailing Sager sure doesn't take very long to do. So yes, your comments about the lack of BIOS is laughable.As for perspective, yeah it is idiotic. You are writing from the perspective of someone who doesn't find Clevo appealing. Your review should be for people who interested in buying a Clevo, not reading your ridiculously biased, opinionated diatribe about Clevo's design. Just stick to what it is. Dimensions, weight, cooling, temps, performance whatever. People who are told about Clevo know what they are getting into. It's not a secret that a Clevo isn't designed for the shallow, fashion obsessed person who must fit in with the hipster crowd. For Clevo owners, a laptop isn't an accessory to our appearance and isn't a expression of vain needs. It's a machine, a gaming machine or for some a work tool. It doesn't need to be pretty.
You said it yourself, Clevo markets to a small niche. Yup, you would be right on that. So your review should be for that small niche that is interested in buying a machine that caters to that small niche.
hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
Also for support, and updates, the way Clevo does it, may be unusual, but it sure works awesome. When the 7970M was found to be unable to work with the HM series, because they do not support switchable, Sager stepped in quick and within a month, Clevo sellers were selling Clevo 7970M with modded vBIOS so would work in a HM.I've mentioned Mythlogic before, they are full AMI Aptio servicer, and can even unlock Raid 5 for those who request it. Can you get that from Alienware? Can you get that from MSI? Nope, nope and nope.
xtrophy - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
Just wanted to put out there that I have owned a plethora of laptops. Of all the ones I have owned the Clevo feels the most solid of them all.I owned an M11x R2 and an M14xR1, both of them had serious hinge issues and both had creaks and issues with build quality.
I had a second gen MBP and, while light, the over heating was too much of a problem. I was given the laptop by a friend after they upgraded to a desktop. After using it I have decided I would have never spent that much on a Mac.
I prefer the solid feel of the Clevos. Their build quality far out reaches everything I have touched and, as I have stated before, That is not a small number. I've owned my own repair business in the past (I have since moved on to bigger and better things).
I can make no comment on the Razer Blade, but I would (just like in the case with Macs) not pay that much money for dated hardware. Sure it has all the gimmicks, but to me there is no way those gimmicks are worth it in the long run.
And don't get started on Alienware. I made that mistake. Twice. Want to know the sad part? I have to send the M11x in AGAIN to replace the hinges AGAIN because since I have given it to my fiancee, they have begun to crack and pop. Their "build quality" consists of "expensive materials" and a blender to put it all together.
transphasic - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
Jarred, I would like your honest opinion, appraisal, prognosis, and projection based on your experience and what you have seen so far regarding the "newest" comparison between the 680m and the 7970m AFTER the new AMD driver patches for the 7970m are released by the end of the year.In your professional estimation and based on what you seen thus far, will the 7970m be on par and and roughly equal to the 680m once the updated drivers are released for it?
I ask this, because like a lot of other people here (and other forums as well) who own the 7970m were told big things about gaming performance ON PAPER that never translated into real-world results in the games we played due to under-utilization/Enduro problems, and so we are still seriously thinking of swapping out our cards for the much better 680m.
If you were in this same position as we are, would you still swap out GPU's for the 680m even after the AMD patches are in place regardless of the big initial price difference or later upgrade swap-out cost (which would run about $700-$800 dollars according to what Sager told me)?
Call me a "Doubting Thomas" here, but I am still very dubious and skeptical at this point of whether or not our 7970m GPU's will ever be on par in gaming or battery life with the 680m at any point regardless of what patch/update AMD puts out in the next 6 months.
Your thoughts?
hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
He already showed on the benchmarks he ran on many games, it's not far behind the Alienware. So with a few more iterations and fixes, hopefully be on par. He also said this isn't the finished hotfix that will be released, it wasn't even packaged properly and had issues installing it.As for 680M. C'mon be serious. The 680M costs $900 if you were to buy it separately, and it is about $300 more than 7970M from any Clevo reseller. You can hope, but why forego your brain and common sense? The difference between 7970M on my Clevo and a 680M equipped in many games, is not that far apart right now. Again, you're trying to have paid $50 for a cake but wanting it to be the $150 cake. Can't do both.
JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
If AMD does everything right, by the end of the year the HD 7970M should be roughly the same level as the GTX 680M -- faster in a few titles, slower in others. My recommendation (and I made it at the bottom of the 7970M conclusion) is that for a $2000 notebook, the better drivers and performance of the GTX 680M make it the better choice: 15% more money ($2300), 15% better performance, and drivers that work today.But if you already have the 7970M, would I try to buy the upgraded 680M? Unless you can return the 7970M for $600 and only pay the $300 difference, no I wouldn't. Maybe if you can return the whole notebook and get it with 680M that would work? Also, by the end of the year (or early next year), we'll probably be seeing another generation of high-end mobile GPUs. By the time AMD has 7970M fully fixed in terms of drivers, it will be their "last year's best AMD option". Anyway, wait for the Hotfix, test it in the games you want to play, and then decide if it's good enough or not.
Also, testing several games on the P170EM with Optimus GTX 680M, the GTX 680M also has "underutilization" problems. Now, they may be to a lesser degree than the 7970M, and so far it's mostly at our Medium and High detail testing (e.g. not at Ultra). I'll be discussing this in part 2 of the P170EM review. It's possible that the root issue is simply the copying of frames, particularly at higher frame rates (lower settings). Whether you're at max detail or minimum detail, copying a 1920x1080 frame over the PCIe bus will use the same amount of bandwidth. I wouldn't think it's much of a problem (especially at PCIe 3.0 speeds), but it's still overhead. A 5-10% drop in some cases might be the cost of Optimus/Enduro.
hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
I think this should also be put in perspective. Dell, Samsung and others make LOTS of laptops for the battery conscience and very good at it. Clevo in their current lineup, I don't see any thin and light. Even their slimmed down have GTX 660M, more powerful than the best Apple can offer. And even their 11" machine has a 650M. I agree, the battery life on Clevo pales compared to Alienware, but I think it should be stated differently. This is what you get from a company that doesn't make ANY thin and light notebooks made primarily for on the go battery efficiency.JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
Alienware proves that you can still get reasonable battery life without being "thin and light" -- at least if you want to. Clevo is also the company that for years fought off the trend of Optimus and only started supporting it with Sandy Bridge. I know people that hate the idea of Optimus, and I think there's still a place for discrete-only systems. Alienware covers both with their BIOS option to disable the iGPU, and Clevo could have done the same. Anyway, battery life is just one item on my list of things Clevo hasn't done as well as they could.hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
FYI Alienware are unlikely to do that in the future. MS, Nvidia, Intel and AMD all have concluded muxless switchable graphics is the best method and will be the standard.Alienware is designed for the mainstream crowd who are more interested in being able to brag about a brand name than being able to customize their laptop and paying a premium for it. And you forget, Clevo is the pioneer when it comes to laptop gaming. They were the first company to use MXM, the first to have SLI and CFX laptops. They are the industry leader, and standard setter for mobile gaming. Much of the cooling design, dual fan design and customization and upgradability is pioneered by Clevo. And this is what they are good at.
Also I highly doubt that someone who buys a 17" Alienware will be using it for 4+ hours at a time on the battery. You can't game on it on battery still, so why bother using a 17" monster for 4+ hours browsing on Chrome? Sure it's just on aspect of your review, but you sure hammered it in, Clevo are inept at battery life. I think for many Clevo owners, we're just happy we even have battery life.
hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
I think this review was great. I just believe the audience for a Clevo is not the same as perspective this review was written from. The people who buy Clevo are not the same crowd who are looking for a brand name notebook so they can proudly show off their billboard fashion sense. It's not the crowd that is going to be focused on the aesthetics or even how amazing the keyboard is. I find the keyboard to be lacking also, but it's exaggerated. It's functional and it works. I've used the keyboard for work for months now and I haven't had issues with it, whether I'm working on the database, data entry or working on marketing material.I think your preference in notebooks shows clearly. Obviously the Samsung Series 7 is your cup of tea. I'm quite the opposite, I don't want a silver notebook, I want a beast matte finished, uninteresting notebook. I don't want attention or stares. I don't want to advertise that I have a $2000 laptop to the world. Alienware, MSI, Asus with their eye catching design, scream, I'm expensive, I'm worth a pretty penny, steal me, touch me. No one wants to look at my laptop or touch it, they don't care, and that's just dandy with me.
Also I differ on your opinion on the display ports. I like em in the back and appreciate that. When I connect a display to my machine, I don't have the display to the right or left of me, it's behind my laptop. So for me, personally, it makes perfect sense. This way I don't have a cable jutting out from the side and jerked backwards. Just me I guess, but makes a whole lot of sense to me.