NVIDIA 780i: Evolution Plus Triple SLI
by Wesley Fink on December 17, 2007 9:00 AM EST- Posted in
- CPUs
Final Words
When we first saw the 780i chipset in late October it was clear that the new chipset was basically the same 680i two chip micro-architecture with an added nForce 200 chip to provide two x16 PCIe 2.0 compliant graphics slots. 680i already supports 1333FSB bus and DDR2-1200, so this wasn't new. However, there were several intriguing new features such as support for the new 45nm Penryn chips from Intel, 3-way SLI to boost gaming performance using three NVIDIA graphics cards, and the introduction of ESA to give enthusiasts the ability to custom control all the major components of their system. These interesting features provided a bit of justification for the upgrade to 780i.
Then NVIDIA delayed the 700i series for about six weeks as rumors flew that Penryn would not work properly with 780i, at least in the quad-core flavor. The talk was that NVIDIA was respinning the chipset to fix compatibility issues. NVIDIA now tells us that the issue was a change in the final release of Penryn that required a rework of some of the board circuitry. The chipsets themselves, both 780i and 680i, are said to be perfectly capable of supporting Penryn if used on a modified board. It now appears a complete fix cannot be made with just a BIOS update for 680i; it is possible a BIOS update will allow dual-core Wolfdale to work as it should, but not quad-core Yorkfield. We will leave the official word for this with NVIDIA and their board partners.
At any rate, somewhere along the way to the fix for Penryn, the new features of 780i became not so exclusive. First, NVIDIA now tells us that 680i can also support Penryn on a reworked motherboard if the manufacturer chooses to implement it. We also hear that most manufacturers are choosing to move to 780i for their Penryn support, although a few manufactures will release an updated 680i board that will fully support Penryn flavors. Last Thursday 3-way SLI launched (but not 780i), and we learned that 680i could also support 3-way SLI. This support is via two x16 slots and an x8 slot, and none of the slots are PCIe 2.0, but Triple SLI will still run on 680i. Strike down another feature we thought was exclusive to 780i. Finally, in the last few days we learned that ESA, NVIDIA's interesting new Enthusiast System Architecture control standard, would also work on the 680i chipset. At this point, we are left to ask what then is truly unique about 780i.
The answer appears to be three x16 PCIe slots instead of x16, x16, x8 with two of the slots (but not all three) being PCIe 2.0 compliant. This seems to be a tremendously small advantage, even for a chipset that is clearly more evolutionary than revolutionary. Our own tests confirm what NVIDIA has already told us, and that is that performance of the 780i under the same test conditions is the same as the 680i chipset. There is, however, one big advantage for 780i. You can be sure, with 780i, that your motherboard will support Penryn. While the 680i might support Wolfdale with a BIOS update, you will need a new board to run Yorkfield. If you are going to have to buy a new NVIDIA board, you might as well buy the 780i.
Again, we are taking a closer look at 3-way SLI on the 780i so look for our test results on whether the 3-Way performance with three x16 slots will make a difference for you later today. You will also see a review shortly that will examine the overclocking capabilities of the 780i. We are still excited about ESA, and we are hard at work on a review of an ESA system with a selection of current ESA certified components. We are interested to see what real impact the ability to control peripherals other than the motherboard will have on system performance.
To be blunt, there is almost nothing new about 780i. It now turns out 680i does all the same tricks except supporting three x16 PCIe slots (680i supports x16, x16, x8) with two being PCIe 2.0 compliant. However, you do get assurance with 780i that you are getting a new NVIDIA motherboard certified by Intel to support Penryn (Wolfdale and Yorkfield). You do not get that assurance when you purchase a current 680i chipset motherboard.
We like the new features from NVIDIA that we first saw in late October with 780i. The fact that virtually all of these new features also run on 680i just means that they are not exclusive, which is good news for current 680i owners. Whether 3-way SLI on three x16 PCIe slots, ESA control, or Penryn compatibility are features you want is something individuals will need to examine for how they fit their vision of a great computer system.
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Wesley Fink - Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - link
As mentioned in the article we also have a 780i overclocking review coming to answer your questions in more detail. This was a chipset launch, and there was little point of doing game tests when performance is the same as the well-tested 680i. The benchmarks we did run were just a sanity test to determine if 680i/780i really did perform the same, and they did.Anand is delving into Triple SLI performance and Gary Key will be doing an article on overclocking the 780i with Penryn. I will be following up later with an ESA system review, although the ESA test platform is actually is powered by a 680i.
All of these reviews were planned to work together, but got sidetracked in our server crisis and image meltdown. You should see Anand's Gaming/Triple SLI review tomorrow.
Frumious1 - Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - link
Since I don't have behind the scenes info, I'm left to conjecture. Maybe nVidia sent the hardware on Friday and you didn't have time, or maybe there were a bunch of testing issues. HardOCP seemed to be pretty unimpressed, but then what's new? Since this is a chipset launch article, with a few new features, I just felt we should see testing to check out how those features impact performance.SLI support, you've got SLI/Tri-SLI testing from Anand but that's with 8800 Ultra cards. It was a nice article, covering that area, but what about PCIe 2.0? Seems to be a part of the chipset, and some sanity checks with 8800GT SLI on both 680i and 780i would have been able to say if there was any actual difference. That wasn't done anywhere yet. That is not a motherboard review, or a Penryn overclocking article - that is a part of the chipset.
ESA is a system thing as I understand it, so it makes sense to wait for a complete system review. Overclocking is also somewhat part of a chipset review, but as demonstrated in teh past it's also very motherboard specific. Otherwise why is it that Asus, DFI, etc. do better than some others?
What it comes down to is that there appears to be one truly new and unique feature for 780i: PCIe 2.0 support. Well, and Penryn support, but that seems to be something that can be addressed on new 680i boards since 680i ~= 780i - nF200. You totally missed that in this "chipset launch review" by not even touching that with any form of benchmark. Show us some games, with PCIe 2.0 graphics cards, and show us whether there's any difference or not. That's what I want from an article looking at a new chipset - a focus on what's actually new.
Wesley Fink - Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - link
We said in the review that the current top PCIe 2.0 cards like the 8800 GT do not even come close to saturating the past PCIe 1.1 bus. Since PCIe 2.0 is just a bandwidth increase, and nothing else, why would you expect it to make any difference at all in the performance of the 8800 GT? That was alreay a known before the chipset review.Anand tested with the 8800 Ultra because the 8800 GT will NOT work in triple SLI. You must have a dual SLI connector for triple SLI, and the 8800GT doesn't have a dual connector. That is very well-explained in Anand's 3-way SLI article, and only the near obsolete 8800GTX and 8800Ultra have the dual connector.
Frankly we're always ready to test new technology, but the best I can figure the 780i SPP is a 680i SPP with the 16 lane PCIe connect overclocked to 4.5 GT/s. nVidia couldn't even quite reach the 5.0 GT/s level that is the PCIe 2.0 spec, but it really doesn't matter since PCIe 2.0 makes no difference today - it might in the future. The MCP is a 2-generations ago 570 MCP.
Changing an ID string and stamping a chip with a new name does not make it new technology. The chipset works well and will fill in for a short period until nVidia introduces their new chipset that will support 1600 FSB and DDR3.
Wesley Fink - Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - link
We said in the review that the current top PCIe 2.0 cards like the 8800 GT do not even come close to saturating the past PCIe 1.1 bus. Since PCIe 2.0 is just a bandwidth increase, and nothing else, why would you expect it to make any difference at all in the performance of the 8800 GT? That was alreay a known before the chipset review.Anand tested with the 8800 Ultra because the 8800 GT will NOT work in triple SLI. You must have a dual SLI connector for triple SLI, and the 8800GT doesn't have a dual connector. That is very well-explained in Anand's 3-way SLI article, and only the near obsolete 8800GTX and 8800Ultra have the dual connector.
Frankly we're always ready to test new technology, but the best I can figure the 780i SPP is a 680i SPP with the 16 lane PCIe connect overclocked to 4.5 GT/s. nVidia couldn't even quite reach the 5.0 GT/s level that is the PCIe 2.0 spec, but it really doesn't matter since PCIe 2.0 makes no differenc today - it might in the future. The MCP is a 2-generations agao 570 MCP.
Changing an ID string and stamping a chip with a new name does not make it new technology. The chipset works well and will fill in for a short period until nVidia introduces their new chipset that will support 1600 FSB and DDR3.
Frumious1 - Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - link
I understand why Anand used 8800 Ultra cards. That was the point of his article: Tri-SLI. Not chipset or anything else. And I'm guessing you're right that PCIe 2.0 is nothing and won't impact performance for probably years - in fact, I bet PCIe x8 is sufficient for everything we currently do, since ATI and nVidia use bridge connections for most card-to-card communications in SLI/CF. I'd still love to see an actual test that proves this is the case.You and I and everyone else can assume all we want, but without a test we don't actually KNOW. Since the only PCIe 2.0 cards are 8800GT (and the new GTS) and 3850/3870, and since this is an nVidia chipset, I just thought it would be good to prove and not guess at what impact PCIe 2.0 has. Maybe nVidia does benefit in some situations on SLI setups. Not likely, but maybe.
Frumious1 - Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - link
PS - if you don't have two 8800 GT cards floating around for PCIe 2.0 tests, you need to slap nVidia! Besides Penryn, that's the only feature worth testing on the new chipset.masteryoda34 - Monday, December 17, 2007 - link
This is probably the most disappointing recent motherboard launch from Nvidia. The only reason I could see buying this over an Intel P35 or X38 is for the SLI support. It's unfortunate they didn't use a new chipset. Basically the same as when they did NF4 to NF5, no new features just processor support.anandtech02148 - Monday, December 17, 2007 - link
with all these bulky graphic card pile up.. why dont' they just make a dongle connector for all the Sata ports.that or i need someone with sausage fingers that can reach all the sata ports.
and i guess the graphic guys realy want to rub out the audio cards.
Wesley Fink - Monday, December 17, 2007 - link
Actually the SATA ports are still accessible even with 3 double width graphics cards in Triple SLI. If you click to blow up the motherboard images on p.6 you will see the SATA ports are located so they fall just to the right of the first PCIe slot.You're right about audio though. Fortunately the on board is hi-def Azalia, but many will want a better audio card for 3-way SLI gaming.
customcoms - Monday, December 17, 2007 - link
Should be 650i, not 750i. Page 3.