First Thoughts & End Remarks

2020 was indeed a super-exciting year for Arm’s server ambitions, and one can easily claims that then Neoverse N1 has been a resounding success and implementations can be seen as being on the same playing field as the best that AMD and Intel are able to achieve, even against today’s newest generations.

The new Neoverse V1 and N2 continue the story in a 2-prong approach. For the Neoverse V1, back when the design was initially teased back in September, I was quite amazed at the claim of +50% IPC. After today’s figures, while the design is still very impressive, the disclosures of the power, area, and resulting power efficiency requirements have somewhat dulled my expectation of the new CPU microarchitecture.

What’s clear about the Neoverse V1 is that this seems to really be an HPC-oriented design. Alongside the known SiPearl Rhea chip, backed by the European Processor Initiative’s goals for HPC uses, Korea’s ETRI (Electronics and Telecommunications Research Institute) also has a V1 designed dubbed “K-AB21” in the works, also with hybrid HBM2E and DDR5 memory. Along with today’s announcement of the V1, India’s Center for Development of Advanced Computing has also announced that they’re a V1 licensee and be using it in an exascale supercomputer project.

Essentially, it seems the V1 will serve as the foundation of many new custom HPC projects, which is a great win both for Arm as an IP vendor, as well as their licensees which are able to build something to their exact needs.

For enterprise and cloud usages, given the CPU’s power efficiency, I now doubt that we’ll somehow see implementations from cloud or merchant silicon vendors such as Amazon or Ampere, particularly because the N2 will be available.

The Neoverse N2 is a more straightforward migration from the N1. IPC is improved by significant amounts which should result in good generational performance increases. I have concerns about power efficiency as the performance increases come at a linear cost of increased power. There’s a one-time opportunity to increase performance in many workloads by closing the power-gap for workloads which do not fully fill the TDP of a system today (while throttling others), however any further performance increases beyond that are dependent on actual good physical implementations by the vendors to fully take advantage of the next-generation process nodes and to execute on those theoretical gains. We’ll see how that will pan out – for now I’ll give the Arm the benefit of doubt, however we’ll also see similar gains in 5nm designs from the likes of AMD. How the competitive situation will end up in 2022 remains to be seen.

Arm had also made a note that while the N2 is a newer generation IP than the V1, roughly a year apart in design, the company actually expects for N2 products to come out only shortly after V1 products, sometime by end of this year. This further enforces my view that we’ll probably not see much V1 designs outside of the HPC market, and that Amazon and Ampere are likely to follow up with N2 based Gravitons and Altras. I want to be explicit here that none of the usual cloud vendors / CSPs / hyperscalers have yet officially commented on what kind of IP they'll be using in the next-generation designs.

The star of the show today was I think the CMN-700, and the vast new flexibility it allows vendors to achieve. The new architectural improvements and the move towards CCIX 2.0 and CXL are definitive big advances that will allow licensees to create more exotic designs. At the very least, it allows for effective usage of chiplet architecture designs, which is a much-needed feature that vendors need to adopt to be able to ensure affordability and manufacturability of products on leading edge nodes.

I’ll be looking forward to new V1 and N2 designs in 2022, and hope we’ll hear more details from licensees through the course of the year.

Eventual Design Performance Projections
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  • yeeeeman - Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - link

    what about a cortex a55 successor? Reply
  • SarahKerrigan - Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - link

    I'd expect to see one next month launching alongside Matterhorn. Reply
  • eastcoast_pete - Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - link

    Hi Sarah, can you post any links (including rumors) about that? Given ARM's focus on bigger, high performance-oriented designs, the LITTLE cores haven't gotten a lot of love in recent years. The persistence of the in-order designs for ARM LITTLE cores is one of the reasons why I find the dominance of ARM troubling; that clearly stood still because there is nowhere else to turn to for many, i.e. they didn't have to change it. In x86, at least we have two larger players having their own, yet compatible designs. Reply
  • SarahKerrigan - Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - link

    I've seen it reported in a few places, including on RWT which is a pain to search - but since task migration generally requires compatible instruction sets between big and little cores, it's pretty clear that Matterhorn will bring a small, low-power friend when it arrives. Reply
  • Raqia - Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - link

    I wonder if they could simply repurpose either a refresh of the A73 or A75 as the little core. Surely with the new fabrication processes available, die area relative to a big Matterhorn core should be comparable to A55 vs A78/X1, but the question becomes performance / energy. Integer performance of A75/73 vs. Ice Storm is comparable with the former winning by a bit in FP, but efficiency is light years apart:

    https://images.anandtech.com/doci/13614/SPEC-perf-...

    https://images.anandtech.com/doci/16192/spec2006_A...
    Reply
  • SarahKerrigan - Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - link

    I think use of a refreshed A65 without multithreading and with the new ops seems more plausible to me. Reply
  • Raqia - Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - link

    That could make sense; there's fairly little information on the micro-architecture of the A65 or A65AE at present except that it does do OoOE, and it's unclear what clocks and efficiency it can achieve as well:

    https://developer.arm.com/documentation/100439/010...

    It does sport a bigger maximum L2 configuration than the A55. They do need to up their game here as the A55 makes a pretty poor showing for efficiency compared to Apple's small core (which got even worse in the A14 generation):

    https://images.anandtech.com/doci/14072/SPEC2006ef...

    At least wattage and hence current draw is low.
    Reply
  • SarahKerrigan - Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - link

    A65 is E1, which has had a uarch dive on this site. Reply
  • Raqia - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link

    Got it, thanks for that! The A65 is interesting, without SMT they are quoting a pretty modest bump in integer performance < 20% at a bit more than half the power of A55 at 7nm:

    https://images.anandtech.com/doci/13959/07_Infra%2...

    https://images.anandtech.com/doci/13959/07_Infra%2...

    They could probably tune this to be better without SMT, but are you against having SMT for security reasons?

    It's still not close to Apple's small cores in performance, but efficiency might be in the same ballpark now. ARM designs are quite good in terms of PPA but even their performance oriented X1 is likely only 70% the die area as a Firestorm core, and their cache hierarchies are more complex as core designs pull double duty for servers parts too.

    It probably made sense to have fewer transistors per CPU core as quite a few Android SoC vendors integrated modems on die, but this may change once Qualcomm digests its Nuvia purchase and move to a smaller node. All parties may hit a wall for per core improvements as slowing SRAM density improvements at new nodes bottleneck what gains are gotten from logic density improvements.
    Reply
  • Kangal - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link

    TL;DR - ARM needs to focus on a new product stack. It needs to have a diverse ARMv9 lineup of small, medium, large chipset options. With the small chipset being very scalable down to Tiny IoT Sensor level. Whereas the large chipset being scalable up to large supercomputers and servers. Whilst the medium chipset focusing on phones and tablets. As this covers full SoC, it includes both CPUs and GPUs.

    Long version:
    I know making these architectures is a huge challenge, but ARM has been a little lazy in some scenarios. I know they're basically following the money in the industry, and that means chasing the "phablet" market for CPUs and GPUs. But they've been leaving themselves vulnerable to gaps, in either smaller power or larger power systems, that can be exploited by competitors, such as RISC-V. If not, even x86 might poke some wins here and there.

    Ages ago, like 2013, they had the A7 (tiny), A15 (small), and A57 (medium) core designs. Basically covering most bases. Along with the Mali-400 iGPU, and 1GB-2GB Shared-RAM, to do some compute tasks. To say ARM was innovative would be a disservice to the technology they brought forward. That's in contrast to x86 Intel's Atom (small) and Intel's Core-i7Y/M (large), as well as Intel Iris Pro iGPU with 8GB Shared-RAM in systems of the time. Then ARM made the leap into 64bit processing around 2016. The lineup evolved into the A35 (tiny), A53 (small), A73 (medium) core designs, running with 1GB-2GB-4GB sRAM, and used modest G31 (tiny) to G51 (small) to G71 (medium) iGPU options. Again, this lineup was very innovative and impressive. Contrast that to the new x86 competition in AMD's 16nm Vega Large-iGPU, and Zen1 Large-CPU.

    However... There hasn't been any upgrades for the "tiny" portfolio, being stuck to the offerings of Cortex A35 CPU and G31 GPU ever since. There has been only a slight refresh to the "small" portfolio, upgrading to the Cortex A55 CPU, and the G52 and G57 iGPUs. To the point that they're a joke, and easily surpassable by the competitors. ARM really needs a revolutionary new design here, it needs to be super-efficient. Perhaps something that can scale between both tiny and small categories: with performance ranging from the A55 (or more) at the "tiny" power-level, to the A73 (or more) at the "small" power-level. Basically catching up to Apple, if unable to surpass them.

    Whereas the "medium" portfolio has seen very frequent upgrades, in the CPU-side to the Cortex A75, A76, A77, and A78. In the GPU-side we've seen G72, G76, G77, G78 which have been mostly competitive, surpassing some custom implementations (Samsung/MediaTek) and losing to others (Apple/Qualcomm). Not much needs to change here to be honest. We've also seen the emergence of a new "large" category of ARM processors. Firstly popularised by custom implementations from Apple (A10 and onwards), then Samsung (Mongoose M3, and onwards). Now it's supported officially by ARM in the form of the Cortex A77+ and the Cortex A78X / X1. This has been mostly underwhelming and uncompetitive, with Apple being the only one implementing good designs. There hasn't been any new "large" category for iGPUs from ARM or competitors, with the only Large-iGPU exception actually being inside the Apple Silicon M1. ARM (without counting Apple) needs to do better here, and it looks like ARM might already be focussing here in the future with ARMv9. Again contrast this to the x86 markets offering 7nm Large-CPUs of Zen2 and Zen3, with RDNA-1 and RDNA-2 Large-GPUs.
    Reply

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