Are your copies supposed to be identical to the COTS discs?

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Yes.

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So what is the problem here ? You're worried that now instead of having a single disk for all installs, now you need a disk for each installed version ?

Or maybe you're more worried about the fact that your "one disk to rule them all" will no longer work with that key pirated around on the internet in form of a text file ?

Seriously guy, I have seen *you* make much bigger mistakes than this; if in fact someone even considers this a mistake. When you buy a copy of a Microsoft operating system, everyone knows that you're not really purchasing the software, but the key/license to use that OS. Technically, you, I and every other regular joe can NOT just buy the key, and use it with any ole install media. That is reserved for large vendors, or perhaps large customers who usually pay someone else ( probably a Microsoft partner ) to install thousands of copies; and it is up to these partners to pass on the savings or not.

In the latter case, your point is moot, and this is the only real situation I can see your point would be valid. So again, I have to ask; What is the problem ? You buy a licenses/key, it comes with media that is supposed to work with it. Maybe you were hoping to install the same copy for which you only have one legal license for ? If you have a *need* for this type of thing, perhaps you should contact Microsoft for a means to do what you need; Legally.

Now, if this bothers you that much, there are plenty of "free" Operating systems out there that I am sure you will be happy playing around with. Whats that you say ? Most current game titles wont run on Linux, BSD, OpenSolaris, BEOS . . . ? You cutting edge technology hardware has no driver modules in those given OS's ?

Maybe your problem is not that bad after all eh ? Perhaps you should be whining the the OSS's ear as well ? Oh, right, I forgot. You had to pay for that Microsoft operating system, and they held a gun to your head as well I suppose ?

Seriously . . .

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You aren't very smart are you? You can't see outside your narrow, pathetic worldview to consider that other people might have legitimate reasons for wanting this? Let's jump to the pointing-fingers-piracy conclusion why don't we, since clearly if you don't need it, no one else does?

Let me just give you one example: let's say you have family (questionable). Let's say you're decent with computers (ditto). Let's say much of your family isn't. You will probably be asked to fix said family's computers. A lot. Many OEM computers do not include installation media. Other times, it'll be lost. Windows installs are often ruined by various malware, poor practices, etc. Sure, sometimes they can be fixed, but sometimes they just really need to be wiped clean. Guess what you can do? Well, with Vista, just grab your own (Retail, Ultimate) disk and go use the (OEM, Home Premium) key from the back of their computer and bam. You're done.

You even prove everyone's point when you say "When you buy a copy of a Microsoft operating system, everyone knows that you're not really purchasing the software, but the key/license to use that OS." Exactly. So why does the media matter, and why does it have to be restricted to the license you bought?

Sorry for being offensive but...well, you were too.

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Perrel,

I had to create a login just to comment to your posting! You ARE 100% Correct.

My uncle purchased a dell (2.8 P-4) so he probably got it like 4-5 years ago. I went to his house to do a reinstall as the O/S was acting very strange. Can't find the disk, I had two or three different copies of windows (this was XP), none of which would except "HIS LEGAL KEY, which was on the side of the machine". I quick call to dell showed that "a specific disk" could be mailed out, but since the unit was out of warranty, the cost for this was going to be ~$200. I told him (this was back in June) to hold off wait for the "Vista to Win7 upgrade" and purchase a new entry level system then.

So the idea of having one disk that contains all versions is great. Especially for me (the family computer fixer guy). Also, from a sales standpoint, it is much easier to get people IMO to upgrade if they already have the disk. Want ultimate? Just change code (via internet purchase) and you are ready to go, you don't have to wait a week or pay $25 for overnight shipping.

Regards,
Red

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There is one problem with your "family" view. Using your own media as such is not technically legal. There is a reason why OEMs do not pay what you and most everyone else pays for licences. Actually, there are two,and a possibility for a third. First reason would be the obvious lack of media distributed with the licences. Second would be because large OEMs are definitely Microsoft partners that distribute the various OS's in bulk. The third *possible* reason would be all the media that comes preinstalled on a given copy of an Operating system distributed by the OEM. These companies who make this software are very likely partners as well. Not to just Microsoft, but to the OEMs themselves.

As for my dim view, it is not *my* view. Rather it is Microsoft's view, and I do not like it any more than the next person. But if you want to use their software *legally*, then you better take a closer look at their EULA before you say anything about it.

Technically, back with XP, from what I understood, if you contact the OEM who distributed the license, and if you asked them for a copy of the media; they were obligated to do so. That may have changed with Vista, but it is the correct way of doing things. Not using a copy of someone else's media, which is keyed/licensed differently.

Just because you think something is right, does not make it legal. Same goes for anyone.

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"You even prove everyone's point when you say "When you buy a copy of a Microsoft operating system, everyone knows that you're not really purchasing the software, but the key/license to use that OS." Exactly. So why does the media matter, and why does it have to be restricted to the license you bought? "

Sorry, I missed this part and did not really address it.

Do you know the differences between OEM bulk licenses, the OEM licenses, and retail copies of media ? Just a small part of these licenses is bulk; no media, OEM; one time non transferable install only. Retail; Unlimited install, one machine at a time only. There are other things for each type listed in the EULA . If you install a different media for a machine, that renders your license void. It does not matter if both media types are the same or not, but how the media was licensed,to whom, and whether or not the media is transferable or not.

Typical examples of a lot of people breaking the law, is using an OEM copy install on the same machine more than once, on multiple machines one copy at a time, Or giving a computer to another party with an OEM copy installed on it. Whether this is right or wrong in your view, or mine is irrelevant. It *is* technically illegal. Whether Microsoft actually pursues these issues on an individual scale is entirely up to them. And no, they often do not.

Now, notice that I did not use any "finger pointing" or "name calling" while addressing your post.


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Just one correction to your point. You apparantly are mixing up the two types of OEM versions of Windows. 1) OEM Bulk (as you mentioned) 2) OEM for distribution. Now the differences....OEM Bulk, no tie to actually media, the OEM, ie Dell, HP, Acer, Sony, etc. Receives one copy of Windows and then pays for each key distributed, (very cheap). If you notice none of the manufatures include discs anymore, but the recepient is allowed to make as many copies as they want, but is tied to the one computer. Therefore there is NO tie to a disc. The second, OEM for distribution, IS tied to a disc and there fore is more expensive than the first, this copy is allowed to be installed on as many computers as you like, as long as it is not installed on more than one at a time. There fore the license is technically transferable, but the transfer MUST be tied to hardware. You can buy OEM versions from anyone on the internet, usally sells for 1/2 the price of the Retail version, Microsoft just requires that something hardware wise must be purchased with it...hard drive, motherboard, cpu, power supply, etc. So to sum up, yes you are correct and you are wrong it depends on the type of license, if it is an OEM bulk, which is what the computer MFG's generally use, then yes you can install from one of your discs and use the license to complete the install. If the license is from a OEM for distribution, then no its not legal.

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Your confusing it, It's the system builder (OEM) that buys the right to use a custom image (Windows OEM Preinstallation Kit or OPK) to install the OS, not the consumers who get this right.

There is also no OEM version for "distribution" it's meant for small system builders (which makes it meaningless for enthusiasts you really need retail when building your own PC you can't act as your own system builder as you don't resell the system and can't offer required services to do so). The end-user license is the same. If you refurbish a PC other rules applies, you have to relicense the system if there's no disc or if you upgrade the motherboard (then it becomes a new computer, for end users that means retail again). Microsoft has pretty much removed any incentive to refurbish or sell used PC, or buying them. If you buy a PC with only a COA and no media your running a unlicensed OS if you install Windows from another media. And a retail license cost's as much as a used PC.

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Yes, his criticism of your arguments were penetrating and he employed some (rather artful) sarcasm. That is always a fair tool in debate. But he stuck to the logic of the argument. You, on the other hand, descended to insults unprovoked. You lose my respect when you use ad hominem attacks, and when you focus on personality above principle.

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I don't really see where this is an inconvenience.
Why would you need a single disc to install multiple versions of Windows? If you need to use 2 versions, you can use 2 discs; is there a problem?

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It's easier to fix things when all you need is a single thing. eg. i have a cousin that need his windows reinstalled but he lost his disk but fortunately he kept the serial and since i still have my disk i could easily install windows to his computer using his key even though we may have different version of windows (easier than getting another disk).

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Best part is I used a retail disc and it took an OEM key, though I had to activate it the long way.

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Not only that, I used a OEM disc, took a retail key and it activates.
Looks like Vista disc has no difference between OEM and retail.


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I love it when the highly hypothetically what-if-case takes half a page before it is unrolled.. seriously, if you really bought it, you make sure you keep it somewhere safe. If you just have some pirated copy, burned to a shabby DVD-R, I can understand you don't watch out for it, hence the "inconvenience"..

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That maybe true if all you fix is your own stuff, but when you have family and friends who aren't as good asking you for help, you wish Microsoft didn't do such a thing...

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Exactly, most "bad computer users" have never experienced the things we have 100's of times. So they throw these things away.

Actually - how many people on here "toss the instructions" because "they don't need them". A lot of users do the same thing with the disks, or at least they put them back into the "original box" which in a few months gets in the way and then goes to the trash.

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Thanks, I see the advantage for other people's machines. And OEM machines that often don't come with a disc.

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Really? Really?
You don't see a problem? How long have you been building machines or in IT? This is Anandtech, half the people here re-build their machines every 3 or 6 months and build family and friend computers all the time.

You don't see a problem?... ok


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I wish there was a similar disk (or web site) you could get into that had all the drivers. Then I would just need the one windows disk to get their systems up, and one site to download all the drivers. Then a quick hit of firefox, winamp, etc., and their system build/re-build is done. I could do it in an afternoon at their place, rather then hours of frustration trying to find the right disk(s) to even get started!

Cheers,


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Apparently this group of MS fanboys are in their parents basement all day with one PC and never have to (re)install Windows on clients/friends/families PCs. What a NIGHTMARE this will be unless it is simple to make a boot disc.

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Yay Fanboys LOL

Just had to do that once haha

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The main inconvenience is that you'd need multiple disks if you have multiple installs with different versions of the OS.

With vista, if I have Business on one machine and Home Premium on another, I can order a single 64bit disk (or sp2 disk) from MS for 10 bucks (give or take) and I can use it for both installations. That's definitely a nice perk.

I'm not clear why MS changed this, especially since it appears that the installations are identical (e.g. home premium has the bit locker features installed, but not activated).

This approach is similar to what telecom equipment companies do...they sell you their switch OS with all the features, but only the ones you paid for are accessible.



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Delete /Sources/ei.cfg and watch your choices come back.

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Yes. If you are a tech-savy user and you want an All-in-one DVD, then use a program like UltraISO and just delete the ei.cfg file from the image before burning to disc. Then your Win7 disc will work just like it used to in Vista, with all versions available.

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Did you read the article? He explicitly says that doesn't work; the removal of the CFG file will render the ISO unbootable.

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Did you try doing it with an ISO editing program like UltraISO? Because I did, and it definitely worked just fine.

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How else would the disc know what version you were installing?

Perhaps they are using it to easily remove the confusion of a "Select version" screen. Although they could probably have users enter the key and then give them a list of options with the highest possible being default selected.

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Exactly, why can't the key determine the version?

But then, the multiple versions are daft anyways, in this respect I think Apple's policy is the best, two versions of the OS, server and everything else. With a cheap, ie 'really a no brainer' type, of price for upgrades.

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On the face of it, Apple's OS appears cheap ... but when you take into account the fact that you're basically paying for service packs, it works out to the same price. (Not to mention, they subsidize the cost of the OS with inflated hardware prices).

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That's pretty much moot though as you only paid $29 ($25 on Amazon) for Snow Leopard upgrade, much smoother then the previous Leopard upgrade. New versions also just comes out every two years. That's pretty much the release schedule MS is on right now. That's not too bad. (I would have bought it if I had a Mac.) $49 ($39 Amazon) dollars for the family pack upgrade. Of course a temporary rebated price, but it includes macs that are several years old, not just the coupon thing MS does for Vista right now.

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The disc doesnt need to know. The license key should determine the version. Vista has been doing it and it works fine, why change it again?

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Thought this might interest you the File sizes of the 32bit and the 64Bit win7 download from MS Volume Licensing. I don't know Why the sizes are different for the 64bit.
Cheers

SW DVD5 Win Pro 7 32BIT English Full MLF X15-71033 2289 MB ISO
SW DVD5 Win Pro 7 32BIT English Upg MLF X15-73572 2289 MB ISO


SW DVD5 Win Pro 7 64BIT English Full MLF X15-71037 2976 MB ISO
SW DVD5 Win Pro 7 64BIT English Upg MLF X15-73888 2975 MB ISO

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64bit system dll's are significantly larger than 32bit dll's. That is why the system requirements for 64bit versions of Windows Vista and 7 are higher in the memory department. For Windows 7, the minimum memory requirement is 1GB for the 32bit version and 2GB for the 64bit version. The same applies for hard drive space. 32bit Windows 7 requires 16GB while the 64bit version requires 20GB.

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Great explanation, except you missed the point.

Looking at JUST the 64bit installers, one of them is 1MB bigger than the other.

However looking at JUST the 32bit ones, they are the same size.

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Well, they don't have to be same size. Don't forget the size of MB is 1,048,576 Bytes... using rounding you can easily hide 400kB file...

let's say full 32 bit version is 2289.4 MB
upgrade 32 bit version is 2289.1 MB
... rounded to MB... both are 2289MB

now 64bit version
full... 2975.6 MB
retail... 2975.3 MB
rounded and you get full having 2976 and retail 2975MB.

Unless we know the size in Bytes there is no way telling whether 64bit version is in this point of view any different from 32bit.

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If you buy Windows Home Premium, plop in the disc, you're expected to install... Home Premium, so the installer does just that
if you buy Windows Ultimate, plop in the disc, you're expected to install... Ultimate, so the installer does just that

it doesn't change the outcome; what user would buy Home version, choose Ultimate from the installation list and then get stuck with a trial period because he has the activation key for the Home edition...

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I suspect this will matter a lot more to people who work for tech review websites and have to keep track of dozens of windows licenses than the average system modder who buys a new OEM windows disk every 2 years.

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yep. And those people are savvy enough to install from USB AND to delete the ei.cfg file to make a single all version installer.

Or bit-bit copy to a -RW disc and then erase the offending file.

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Please stop apologizing for Microsoft taking a backwards step here. What exactly is gained by making anyone have to jump through this unnecessary hoop?

You could argue that anyone upgrading a Windows OS instead of buying a new computer is already somewhat of a tech-literate person and shouldn't get confused by the simple option of choosing which edition to install.

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Perhaps what they should have done instead was still pop up the installer picker, but have the default set to whatever the disk was intended to ship with. That way, the tech savvy can now pick the appropriate install.

Or, enter the key first, and let the key then determine which one is the appropriate version to install (assuming that's how the keys work).

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Yes, that would make the most sense.

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I wouldn't make that argument at all.

I think they are doing it the right way when it comes to COTS.

For a Retail Product that comes boxed and as was said earlier, the user is expecting a certain version, why not just install that version?

I would expect however that MS would omit the file for MSDN/Technet ISO downloads because those are the truly technical people who know how to pick what version they want.



@RYAN - Can you use a Windows 7 "One Disc" and check the install sequence of CD Key vs Version prompt?
In other words, are you prompted for the key first still?
And then if so, enter your Key for your Ultimate version and see if you are still prompted for which version or not.


The other interesting test would be to grab a Vista OneDisc and ADD the file mentioned in the post and see if it has any effect.

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From my experience, the Vista "One Disks" do not ask you what to install. If you type in a retail Ultimate key, it installs Ultimate, type in an OEM Business key, and you get Business. There's no room for confusion, just convenience.

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Many companies use this approach.

For example, the vast majority of Autodesk products - like AutoCAD, use a single disk. Whether that disk time limited, a trial, student version, commercial version, stand alone, network, etc., it's keyed off the serial number. Granted it's a licensing issue and not a feature issue, but as long as the CD-Key for the Win7 install is entered before the installation of the version's 'feature set', it should be a piece of cake.

Not to mention it's easier and cheaper to burn all identical disks than it is to burn 10 different versions. Especially when the only difference is a 50k file.

I mean, as it is, the installer already knows if your CD Key is for Windows Professional, Premium, or Ultimate. Pop in a Home Premium disk that's got this limit on it and key in an ultimate CD Key, it won't work. It'll have to be a Home Premium Key to work.

If you've ever had to manage multiple machines, the One disk policy is the only way to go.

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Except that the installer no longer prompts for a key during install. Maybe it does if you delete the config file, but not by default.

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I'm confused here. People are talking about the Vista disks offering people the choice of different Vista versions when they put a 'One Disk' in. From what I remember, this isn't the case - you put in the product key and it picks the one and only correct Vista version for you.

So... as the author says, this is a step back, no benefits.

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There was an option to install Vista w/o entering a key too, then you would have been able to pick the different choices they are talking about. but you are correct, if you enter the key its a non issue.

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I work at a university help desk - people need their OS reinstalled all the time. However, a large portion of those people have their keys, but are missing their disks or have damaged recovery partition. It is a nightmare, since OEM and VLK discs are constantly mixed up or are missing. This was not a problem with Vista, but it looks like MS has decided that Vista's system was too convenient.

Now we're back to that wonderful system - going to be fun explaining this mess to clients.

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if M$ gets the message they may revert to a one disc system. I wonder if this has anything to do with the cracked OEM keys from Lenovo and that's why M$ is reverting back to XP installation system.

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