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  • Frenetic Pony - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    Mantle giving Krohnos and MS a swift kick in the pants, exactly what it needed to do. Less API overhead and more access to capabilities that are mostly there already, at least mostly there for AMD cards. Awesome Reply
  • Morawka - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    DirectX 12 has been in development for over 3 years, i doubt their low level API talks are knee jerk reactions.

    Its more likely that GPU and Rendering Architects expressed their concern about the overhead in DX11 years ago, and MS is just now allowed to talk about DX12 and how they've progressed.
    Reply
  • juampavalverde - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    Sorry pal, i think it's a reaction, they are afraid of keep loosing marketshare, there is a big cloud of SteamOS, PS4, and AMD is also pushing a bit with Mantle (smoke and mirrors mostly, but it worked). If not by those, these announcement would have been in a few months/quarters, probably for DirectX 11.2b, but no, now is DirectX 12! Beware! Reply
  • jeffkibuule - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    Do people really think that DirectX 12 was developed in the timespan since Mantle was announced? If so, I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you. Reply
  • anandreader106 - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    I don't think anyone believes it was developed in the time span since Mantle was announced but maybe its development was expedited.

    I think you'd agree though it doesn't really matter either way. I'm just glad to have a new DirectX headed to my PC.
    Reply
  • beginner99 - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Why not? Nobody claimed their will be a functionally demonstration. All they might show is a general overview, ideas and a specification which could have easily be achieved in the given time. Reply
  • dragonsqrrl - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    ... holy crap, someone actually said yes. Reply
  • Notmyusualid - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Yes, I am shaking my head too.... Reply
  • chizow - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Heheh yeah it's probably the same folks who were trying their hardest to connect the dots from Mantle to XB1's low-level API when Mantle was first announced back in September 2013. And now, suddenly, DirectX 12 sprung from a hole in the ground as a reaction from Microsoft! Reply
  • Frenetic Pony - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    Actually they said they'd stop development with 11.2, so far as I know I may be correct. Reply
  • inighthawki - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    When did they say they'd stop at 11.2? You're not referring to the guy from AMD who made a bold claim that "Microsoft will never make a DX12" are you? Because that was about as stupid as it sounded. Reply
  • Frenetic Pony - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    Saw multiple reports to that effect. Apparently I didn't see the constant refutations from MS. Maybe it's not a reaction. Reply
  • Sabresiberian - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    Links to reports, please. Reply
  • chizow - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Yep, multiple reports quoting the same misinformed comment from Roy Taylor. Reply
  • MrPoletski - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    I thought that was just hinting at there being a name change - so directx next... and then directx next 2 lol. Reply
  • MrSpadge - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Actually that AMD guy said "I don't know of any DX12 being in development". Which leaves lot's of open space:
    - MS simply didn't tell him/them yet
    - It might get a different name
    Reply
  • chizow - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    No, AMD's Roy Taylor didn't see DX12 on Microsoft's roadmap and jumped to a clearly premature conclusion. It's no surprise he was also the driving force behind Mantle. You can see it in his comments last year about a "sexy" big move for desktop graphics.

    http://www.i-programmer.info/news/144-graphics-and...

    Microsoft later clarified and said there was no plans to discontinue DirectX, but tha XNA/XDA for the XBox was going away (and it did).

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/DirectX-Direct3D-...
    Reply
  • anandreader106 - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    "DirectX 12 has been in development for over 3 years"

    Where did you read that? Do you work for Microsoft and have that kind of internal info? How many years over 3?

    If anything the timing is ironic. I tend to agree with others that say DirectX 12 is a reaction. I can't imagine that it was in development for over 3 years and Nvidia would release a brand spanking new architecture in February without support for it. That doesn't make sense.
    Reply
  • SolMiester - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    If DX12 is a reaction to Mantle, I take my hat off to MS for the ability to create a new API in less than 3months...thats outstanding! Reply
  • inighthawki - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    I would sincerely doubt a finished version would be presented at GDC. Likely more of a preview/tech demo. Rough edged beta. Keep in mind that with the development of a new version of DX, they nee dcorresponding driver support by 3rd parties like AMD and nvidia. If it is really as down to the metal as they claim, it likely differs greatly than the DX11 drivers.

    My guess, it's probably been in the works for a while, possibly before Mantle, but development may not have officially started until recently. Enough time for them to work with 3rd parties to get driver support and a beta of the API.

    We will find out at GDC.
    Reply
  • anandreader106 - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    Well that's just silly. Please don't put words in people's mouths. Nobody said they made a new API in three months.

    First of all it's being announced which in not in the same realm of having a finished API.

    Secondly, nowhere did I suggest Microsoft was starting from scratch. In an earlier post I suggested that Mantle may have expedited development in reaction to Mantle.
    Reply
  • Gigaplex - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    It makes sense when you consider that NVIDIAs new architecture isn't even fully DirectX 11.2 compliant. Reply
  • anandreader106 - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    That's actually a good point Gigaplex. Reply
  • MrPoletski - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Haven't they been saying that about directx since DX5? Reply
  • Th-z - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    If DX 12 has been developed for over 3 years, and it is a major improvement over current 11.x, there would be no reason for AMD to develop Mantle as a lone IHV. Microsoft doesn't develop these standards without partnership with those companies, so there is no way AMD wouldn't know it's has been developed for long time. Johan Andersson of Frostbite, Oxide Games, et al. would have already worked with Microsoft (and more) and not just AMD. These game developers wouldn't have said they have been wanting a low level API on PC for long time but no one seemed to care until AMD took the opportunity to work with them to develop Mantle. Reply
  • HisDivineOrder - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    If anything, Microsoft is more concerned that OpenGL will become dominant again as various Linux-derived OS's begin to take over all the spaces of computing that were once expected to be just Microsoft's. That includes Android, ChromeOS (aka cheapo laptops), SteamOS (cheapo gaming PC's). OpenGL is also important to everything Apple, including iOS devices and OSX computers. Certainly, it doesn't hurt for PS3, PS Vita, and PS4 development, either. Then remember that Windows PC's can run OpenGL just fine.

    It used to be 360 was dominant and porting from 360 to PC was easy enough via DirectX. Other platforms didn't matter much, if at all, so most of the porting was focused on Sony Playstation devices alone.

    But today that's vastly different. Android and iOS are very important markets for publishers now. Being able to support OSX and SteamOS is gravy, but knowing you can support all these PLUS Windows PC's makes it seem much more attractive.

    Or they can go DirectX and be locked into 360 (being replaced by PS4), Xbone (sales are tanking), Windows RT device (failures by all measures), Windows Phones (the tiniest of fractions of what Android and/or iOS devices are doing), and Windows PC's. So, really, just Microsoft platforms.

    Which would you choose? Especially if OpenGL gets out in front of this thing with low level access before DirectX is improved? Suddenly, OpenGL looks alive again and Microsoft loses control of the API. Microsoft has enjoyed DirectX's popularity because it helped keep ports exclusive to Microsoft platforms.

    If OpenGL looks attractive again all of the sudden, Microsoft is going to lose its lock on PC gaming and Linux ports are going to become a LOT easier and a LOT more prevalent. This is not something Microsoft wants to see, so they need to get DirectX 12 out to counter that.

    I suspect that AMD caught wind of it after their little tantrum last year about no DirectX 12, so they invented Mantle and tried to force it down Microsoft's and Sony's throats. Naturally, they both laughed in AMD's face and ignored them. AMD took it to Intel and nVidia to try and get them to support it, but Intel and nVidia had no reason to do that. They pointed and laughed.

    So AMD took it to the press in a rush. That explains why they've handled it so haphazardly. They weren't close to getting it done and if HardOCP latest article about Mantle is to be believed, it's very, very rushed overall. They couldn't even get the planning on when it was to be released right, missing it by months.

    But they had to announce it ahead of DirectX 12 and any changes to OpenGL. Otherwise, no one would care, right? No spin would be able to be done. They wouldn't be able to ride new sales off it.

    The thing is, you just know AMD knew this was coming. They must have found out right before they did their reveal on the R9 290X. That's why they were flopping around like a chicken with its head cut off. Couldn't get dates right, couldn't get releases right, couldn't even get list prices or preorders done.

    Lots of things make more sense now.
    Reply
  • Harag - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Do you wear tinfoil hats too? All that was great but you actually don't have a shred of credible evidence past your own opinion. Reply
  • YazX_ - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    OMG, what an idiot, so over night microsoft saw Mantle and they were like, OH we need to counter mantle, lets create DX 12 within the next 2 months.

    mantle is dead before it even started, not first to come and go and wont be last, seems DX 12 will bring new great things on the table and many low level APIs, then i can actually say RIP mantle.
    Reply
  • Wreckage - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    The OpenGL 4.4 spec came out before Mantle. So no...Mantle did nothing there. DirectX 12 has likely been in development for awhile as well. Mantle just jumped the gun with a buggy product in order to get some press. Reply
  • dwade123 - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    AMD and nVidia's highends became obsolete less than a year. Reply
  • Sabresiberian - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    It's just an announcement, and not being certified for a later version of DX has never made a video solution "obsolete". Reply
  • meacupla - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    not if you run a 2560x1440 monitor. Reply
  • HaeHei - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    So if i get a 780ti will it be compatible with directx 12 or should i just wait ? Reply
  • Gigaplex - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    It's not even compatible with 11.2. Reply
  • anandreader106 - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    Or 11.1... Reply
  • inighthawki - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Kepler is partially 1..2 compliant (has support for tier 1 tiled resources), but it's cricial we make an important distinction. Many people do not understand the difference between the API, and the feature level.

    Each version of DirectX exposes new hardware features that are required on the hardware to make it "DirectX N compliant." This would be, for example, geometry shader support in DirectX10, and Compute/Tessellation in DirectX11. However, what a lot of people do not always understand is that the DirectX API supports what they refer to as "hardware downleveling." This is the fancy way of saying that your game written on DirectX11 will run on your DirectX9 hardware, as long as the game does not enable any features that require hardware support. A DX11 game might run fine on a DX9 compatible card, but you won't be able to enable hardware tessellation.

    Assuming that the primary goal of DX12 is to be "closer to the metal," we are likely looking at primarily API changes to remove overhead, whcih means it should continue to support older video cards. In almost all certainty, your DX11 compliant 780Ti will absolutely work on DX12. You may just be missing a couple high end features, of which most developers probably won't even use for a few years. Even DX11's hardware tessellation is fairly uncommon these days, and DX11 has been out for 4+ years.

    My point being, please do not make generic comments like "It's not even compatible with 11.2" because you are likely just confusing someone who does not know the distinction. A 780Ti is 100% compatible with 11.2, just not all of the 11.2 feature set.
    Reply
  • haukionkannel - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Well DX12 is not MS Mantle answer. DX12 is new DX version and that is that. But DX12 serie (or DX13) can be a base to develop close metal extensions to DX family.
    The MS has said that they are considering of using closer metal in future DX versions, so maybe we will see DX12.1 or DX13 that does support it, but it definitely is not ready for it with DX12 release!
    The interesting is, when there are/will be GPU that support whole DX12 feature set? Maybe at the end of this year... Then we wait 3-4 years to see those features used in games... so that is not so interesting thing to do... like watching how the paint dry...
    Reply
  • inighthawki - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Sorry I'm a little confused. I had a hard time reading your post. Why do you think DX12 isn't going to be close to the metal? They said right in their GDC summary that that's what they are doing. I expect DX12 to absolutely be an answer to Mantle (maybe not in a direct response to Mantle's existence, but certainly a competitor). Reply
  • chizow - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    That's interesting Nvidia isn't DX11.2 compatible, someone should probably explain that to Microsoft since they were in fact, demonstrating DX11.2 on Nvidia hardware at \build\ last year. ;)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB0VKmk5bmI

    Nvidia was supporting tiled resources 2.5 years ago btw in OpenGL with Rage just as an FYI.
    Reply
  • inighthawki - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    This is a tricky question to answer. It depends on what you're asking. DirectX is a software API that also standardizes features. DX11 for example, exposes compute and tessellation, but the DX11 API itself runs downlevel on 9.0a and above hardware.

    So will it work on a 780Ti? Almost guaranteed. Will there be new features in DX12 that the 780Ti won't support? Probably. The question you really need to ask yourself is, what kind of investment do you want to make? Putting the facts together:

    1) DX12 likely won't ship for another year or whenever Windows 9 gets released. That's a good solid 12+ months of you holding out on buying a new card and waiting before the API itself ships
    2) After it ships, how long until official DX12 hardware ships? Maybe right away, maybe another 6-12 months.
    3) In addition to that, how long before anyone ships a game that uses it? It took DICE quite a while to port frostbite and they got delayed a couple months after a decent head start.
    4) Since you are considering a 780Ti, you don't sound like the kind of person where money is a huge issue, otherwise you'd probably realize the horrible price/performance ratio you're getting out of that card. It sounds like when the time comes you won't have an issue upgrading again. Maybe even go halfway - get a cheaper card now, and the more expensive one later.

    My advice? Just get a card now. By the time a DX12 title ships using DX12 features with DX12 hardware and drivers available, your 780Ti will probably be considered old.
    Reply
  • xaml - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Thanks for that.
    Your recommendation for a card with a better ratio would be a custom-cooled 290X, I suppose?
    Reply
  • Naris17 - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Probably be better at this point to wait until the next node shrink and/or a price war. The bitminers of the world have inflated the R9 cards of the world to the point that NVIDIA probably doesn't feel any heat to reduce prices in any meaningful way. Honestly unless you're doing a slew of QHD monitors or something 4K there really doesn't seem to be a reason to get the N level cards when N+1 or N+2 are much more affordable and can play almost everything well. Reply
  • inighthawki - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    I found that after the 290X was released the 780 dropped to a more respectable price level. You can get a 780 on newegg now for $500, which is a pretty good deal to me. The biggest issue is we don't really have a good timeline for the next set of GPUs. Nvidia and AMD are usually pretty secretive with their announcements. Rumors in the past have often been inaccurate.

    You should ask yourself what you need. 12 months from now DX 12 might be out, but then you might keep putting it off. Technology advances too quickly to always have the best you can get. I bought a 780 myself about a month or two before AMD anounced their new cards and Mantle in BF4. Prior to that, it was anyone's guess. At some point you have to put your foot down an invest, otherwise you'll just be in a loop of waiting for the next best thing ;)

    I can't really give you any advice beyond that. I don't know your financial situation, or how badly you want/need a new video card, etc. That part is up to you. I can only try to put the future in perspective for you.

    Hope that helps.
    Reply
  • meacupla - Wednesday, March 05, 2014 - link

    Watch DX12 only be for Win9. Reply
  • Notmyusualid - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Dam - beat me to it!

    But I would have said Windows 8 at least, as that seems to be Micro$oft's only focus of attention of late... So much so there are rumors they will even give Win 8 away, free, or at near no cost.

    To hell with us customers....
    Reply
  • nathanddrews - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    If Microsoft believes that DX12 will be incentive for gamers to upgrade to Windows 8/9, I think they'll lose that bet. Reply
  • Harag - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    There are a ton of features/reasons to use windows 8 for gaming. They don't need DX for that, it just adds to the list. Reply
  • r3loaded - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Doubtful. DX10 was Vista-only due to the massive changes made to the entire graphics stack (drivers in userspace, DWM for compositing and rendering the GUI to GPUs etc). Backporting it to XP would have been too large a task. DX11 on the other hand has been backported to Vista in a platform update as Windows 7 and 8 are closely related to Vista's architecture. I'd expect DX12 to be backported to at least Windows 7 and 8. Reply
  • Mr Perfect - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    You have to consider how MS handled DX11.2 though. They made it a Windows 8 exclusive for no other apparent reason then to push people from 7 to 8. The question now is will they try again with the bigger DX12 carrot, or have they given up on tempting people over and support the mass of people using 7? Reply
  • B3an - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Finally! Been waiting for DX12 forever, it's long overdue and it better have a ton of new features along with lower level access. I don't care if it requires a new OS i always upgrade to the latest anyway. Reply
  • przemo_li - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    One should always remember that up to now MS was SOLELY focused on DX for Xbox One.

    And they had "future tools" when AMD claimed "No next gen API".

    So this DX12 may be re branded DX11.2+ the high level API used on Xbox One. That would not be the first PR stunt in IT history.

    Anyway. Today is speculation. Speculation MS wants to stir in favorable direction (DX12, 12 man! 12 !!!). Will see how it compares to OpenGL 4.4 (yeah, DX need to do some catching up), let alone if it contain any lower level APIs.
    Reply
  • Imaginer - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    I would be estatic if DirectX can work over Remote Desktop. I know it can be possible, since elements of Remote Desktop (off of the top of my head) do work in Remote Desktop.

    That is a significant thing I would like to hear.
    Reply
  • SarahKerrigan - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    RemoteFX may interest you. Reply
  • chizow - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    I guess this spells the official end of the Mantle Project. Won't be a total waste I suppose, AMD should be able to port their low-level extensions to DX12 pretty easily. But that was a pretty big gambit with the resources spent (2yrs + $5-8M) that doesn't look like it will pay off for AMD. Reply
  • Th-z - Friday, March 07, 2014 - link

    Way too early to tell, and Mantle can be cross-platform while DX is not. There is still advantage for AMD to keep Mantle for other OSes in addition to Windows. Reply
  • chizow - Friday, March 07, 2014 - link

    I have a feeling OpenGL will follow suit and mirror DirectX as that has been the pattern in recent history. OpenGL will fill that cross platform gap. Reply
  • crazyfrog - Thursday, March 06, 2014 - link

    Microsoft will probably make all our Directx 11 cards outdated so we have to buy new ones. Most likely octa core cpus. I'll probably have a 2tflop vintage card in a few months :( Reply
  • Sivar - Friday, March 07, 2014 - link

    Someone needs to tell Microsoft:

    From http://tech-beta.slashdot.org/story/13/04/12/18472...

    "AMD Vice President of Global Channel Sales Roy Taylor has said there will be no DirectX12 at any time in the future. In an interview with German magazine Heise.de, Taylor discussed the new trend for graphics card manufacturers to release top quality game bundles registered to the serial number of the card. One of the reasons for this, he said, is that the DirectX update cycle is no longer driving the market. 'There will be no DirectX 12. That's it.'"
    Reply
  • grndzro77 - Friday, March 07, 2014 - link

    When he said that it was true. Reply

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