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  • iamkyle - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Something makes me think that ergonomic keyboards are going to be a thing of the past. Think about it - how many kids these days are being taught typing classes? What about educational institutions moving away from the traditional computer model in favor of say, tablets?

    I understand in the NOW there are many people who have proper home row typing. But methinks the newer generations are relying less and less on this sort of input method, so does the necessity for ergo keyboards.
  • IVIauricius - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Programmers and those who type writers' books come quickly to mind. Perhaps writers can get away with speech recognition software, but a programmer wouldn't leave his keyboard too quickly.

    This comment does make me think. How is the future of input going to evolve now that people use their thumbs for most communication?
  • JarredWalton - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    I'll tell you one thing for sure: the kids these days growing up typing with thumbs on smartphones and using onscreen keyboards with their tablets are in for a rude awakening when they hit 30+. I had a coworker in my mid-20s that had carpal tunnel surgery, and I thought at the time, "Weird...I guess her body just isn't built as well as mine for typing and such." She was around 40 and I was a cocky 20-something, and I really thought I was somehow exempt. Fast forward 15 years and I have learned that it has more to do with age than with body superiority. Give the teenagers another 15-20 years and if we have't figured out a way to avoid typing on smartphones, they're all going to have mangled hands!

    Most likely, for text we're not too far away from doing far more dictation, but nuances of the language are difficult to capture properly without typing.
  • njr - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    I started typing pretty heavily around the age of 5 and developed RSI before I was 20; I'm 34 now. I really wonder if this pattern will start to become more prevalent. Reply
  • kmmatney - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    I'm 42 and have never had carpal tunnel, but I did get really bad "tennis elbow" symptoms. I do actually play a lot of tennis, but it turned out to be caused by how I held the mouse. Now I keep a pad under my forearm and in front of the mouse so my wrist is level or even slightly dent down when I handle the mouse. After a week all symptoms were gone and I could play tennis and handle the mouse without issues. Reply
  • Hector2 - Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - link

    I started getting the "tennis elbow" after retiring at age 65 last year. I figured it was the mouse action and possibly keyboarding too --- my desk surface at home is too high and I don't have good arm support either. Thanks for your input. Reply
  • HisDivineOrder - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Depends on how programming languages advance and if voice command/voice recognition could adapt to service the new paradigm. If done properly, a voice shorthand could be used that would enable a programmer to fill in the blanks as the computer throws in the repetitive stuff that you mostly know is coming. Reply
  • 2disbetter - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    I just watched a video of a guy who used Dragon with a plug in to write code for Python. He developed a special short hand speech for it, and had some 2000+ commands configured. It was very impressive. All that said talking to accomplish something on a computer just seems inefficient and slow. I can type way faster than I can speak. Add in macro's and keyboard shortcuts and I just don't see speech as a viable efficient solution. However, in the case of disability or someone who just wants to give his wrists a break it's an amazing solution. Reply
  • SodaAnt - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Are you sure about that? I can easily speak at over 120wpm a lot of the time, I can't imagine someone typing a lot faster than I can speak without using stenography equipment or anything. Reply
  • JarredWalton - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Speaking at a normal rate, I find most people I know are more like 90-100WPM, maybe 110 at the most. When you start dictating, though, you have to add in a lot of extra stuff for punctuation, so it slows down a bit -- plus you want to take a good breath every now and then. But as someone who has done coding, I shudder to think about trying to dictate many of the commands. g_Lighting_Constant as a variable would either need to be specifically added to Dragon's vocabulary, or you have to say, "gee underscore cap lighting underscore cap constant" to get G_Lighting_Constant -- and yes, I just dictated that to try it. And then when Dragon NaturallySpeaking inevitably messes up on something, either you miss it and get a compile error, or you have to go into the correction menu.

    I'm sure for those people who can't properly use their hands, speech recognition opens up a lot of doors that would otherwise be closed. However, for those who can type even moderately well, I can't imagine trying to do any technical work like equations or coding with speech recognition. Your mileage may vary.
  • fridsun - Tuesday, May 06, 2014 - link

    Using Dragon to code by voice: Reply
  • fridsun - Tuesday, May 06, 2014 - link

    Oops turns out I didn't see the link above. Reply
  • fridsun - Tuesday, May 06, 2014 - link

    Plover: Open source stenography with NKRO keyboard Even at the same Pycon with the Dragon guy. Reply
  • HisDivineOrder - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Methinks that typing won't be replaced by the tablet, per se. It'll be replaced by Voice Command. As Voice Command improves and Siri stops thinking you're saying, "Taiwan Skype" instead of what you actually said which is, "I want to type," and gets more things right, you can expect a repeat of the cursive argument.

    "What need is there now for touch typing when people can just yap at their devices?"

    Then one sad day the keyboard won't be in Best Buy. It'll be sold exclusively online and mostly based off of old parts no longer in production.

    Like the wired remote for your TV. Or those huge satellite dishes people used to buy.
  • JarredWalton - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    And when that day comes to pass, our spelling will get better but our writing will end up full of typos and wrong words. It's hard enough to get people to use proper grammar/punctuation already, and texting is only making that worse. Some day we will likely be able to do much better than current speech recognition, but I think we're more likely to need a good brain interface before we can fully handle noisy environments, situations where there's odd spelling/punctuation, etc. Reply
  • psuedonymous - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Someone send Jarred a Datahand! Reply
  • coconutboy - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Always wanted to get my hands on one of those, but could never stomach the asking price (not that it wasn't reasonable given the unique design). Reply
  • ddriver - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Which genius do we have to thank for that completely ruined set of arrow keys? Reply
  • coconutboy - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    This trek of yours through the ergo keyboards has been really great to read and learn from Jarred. A few of my immediate circle have various stages of CTS and it's great to read comparisons of someone experimenting with a variety of alternatives to the typical keyboard. Reply
  • ShieTar - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    The position of the "Alt" key looks problematic to me. Maybe other peoples thumbs are more agile then mine, but I would expect I'd be hitting Ctrl along with Alt all the time. Reply
  • labrats5 - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    My buddy just got the ergodox, and I can say with great certainty that customization is the main draw. his entire layout was painstakingly designed by scratch to match his exact needs and idiosyncrasies. His goal was to do most everything on or near the home row while using the thumbs for chording, thus making his finger movements more similar to those of a stenographer than of a traditional keyboard typist. He loves the thing to death, but it is only worth getting if you put in the effort. Reply
  • Ninhalem - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Jarred, you have one weird QWERTY layout on your Ergodox. Mine has the "6" key on the left hand, and where your key currently is placed, mine has the "ESC" key. I have the Push Layers and Toggle Layer buttons where your F4 and F5 keys are, the "Backspace" key is on the left hand in place of the "Space" key.

    The beauty of ErgoDox is that you can create a layout all your own to fit your own hand size. I went in on an earlier drop that included PBT DCS blank key caps. The only thing I have to do now, is keep a picture of my current layout in front of me in order to memorize where all the keys are placed now.
  • jjegla - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    I have two ErgoDoxen, one full-hand and one classic (I also prefer the full-hand version). You really should have emphasized at the _beginning_ of your review how customizable these are, because your experience with your OOTB layout is meaningless, as that layout is meaningless - change it to what suits you, as you eventually did. For example, my own standard layout contains three RETURN, three SPACE and two DELETE keys so that I'm never far from one, and exposed F5, F10 and F11 for convenient Visual Studio debugging. I certainly won't be switching back to any other keyboard any time soon, and may even buy a couple more of these, but they are not perfect. They really were designed by someone with large hands - I have trouble reaching the thumb clusters without shifting my entire hand. Also, the use of so many 1.5x keys makes it a very expensive proposition to get labelled keycaps for a custom layout - those 1.5x keys will run you upwards of $7 _each_! Right now I just have sticky labels on mine (yes, the keycaps you can buy from MassDrop _are_ blank). I'm gearing up to buy custom keycaps, but will probably use 1x keys in place of the 1.5x ones just to save on cost (yes, it will be slightly harder to reach them). All-in-all, a really cool project and product and I'm glad to have found it. Reply
  • JarredWalton - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Thanks for the feedback, and you're totally correct. I wasn't entirely sure how the kit comes since mine was pre-assembled, but now that I know I've tweaked several areas of the article to emphasize the customization options. Really, other than being limited to 76 keys and having a less compact feel than some of the other ergo keyboards, there aren't any real deal breakers here. It's a very cool idea, though obviously not something you'd buy on a whim unless you have a lot of disposable income. :-) Reply
  • jjegla - Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - link

    By the way, thanks indeed for this series of reviews - I've quite enjoyed them. Didn't mean to sound too harsh there in that previous comment. You're a glutton for punishment, to the benefit of all of us.

    I happen to have also purchased a TECK keyboard a while ago - I tried it for at least a couple of months, carrying it back-and-forth between work and home, but I just could not come to like the darn thing. For me, the problem was really the key layout, not the size or shape. The way that they chose to lay out the "command" keys (return, shift, ctrl, alt, etc.) was really weird and just killed my productivity. It also really hurt my ability to type on normal keyboards. In the end, I scavenged the keycaps to use on my first ErgoDox. I just saw, a couple of days ago, that TECK have finally come out with a fully-reprogrammable firmware ala ErgoDox. I may have to reassemble the thing and try it again...

    One last note: my TECK had Cherry MX Browns, my ErgoDoxen have Blues (really because that was all that MassDrop could source at the time, I believe). I really like the Blues. They are very loud and clicky-clacky, but it sounds cool and for me they are easier to actuate than the quieter Browns - perhaps has something to do with predicting the actuation point based on the sound or something.
  • jesh462 - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    I just wanted to say that I'm super thankful for all the reviews on keyboards you have posted.
    I didn't get my first computer until the age of 14 (now 26), but I've always had the mentality that it's better to use ergo products and avoid RSI than to take the risk of injury.
    For years and years I've only used the Microsoft Natural 4000. Even though the one I have now is fairly new, I'm now contemplating jumping ship to an ErgoDox. I simply love messing with things and breaking them and fixing them. This keyboard you recently reviewed sounds perfect. Before your first article, I had no idea there were mechanical ergo keyboards!
    Anyway, thanks again, you the man.
  • emilyhex - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    I am always interested and intrigued by new UI devices and I really appreciate these reviews. But, I personally couldn't justify buying this. After customizing it and buying accessories, it's like you are meeting the device half-way, conforming to the device instead of the other way around. Money aside, is the increase in productivity or comfort going to be that much worth the effort and are you going to drag this with you every time you choose to work away from your home base?

    I'm sticking with my wireless that I can plop in my lap from time to time. I have learned where all the quirks are, even if it isn't perfect. I'll patiently wait for the next game changer.
  • Bromsin - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Sigh, another failure in ergonomics. Keyboard manufacturers need some anatomy classes if they want to create a proper ergonomic keyboard.

    Flat keyboards are NOT truly ergonomic as the hands\wrists natural state is not flat. Out of all the so called ergonomic keyboards I have seen, only the Microsoft natural keyboards come close to true ergonomics.

    I am sure you are asking, Why? Simple really, the natural position for hands\wrists when typing is at an angle, with the thumbs slightly higher than the pinkies. This is why the Microsoft wave looking keyboards with the high point in the center is the proper position for typing.

    Same holds true when punching. When you punch a punching bag, your fist should be on an angle with your index finger nuckle being the highest point. That is the natural position of the arm.

    If these companies want to create a truly ergonomic keyboard, look to Microsoft's Natural 4000 and figure out how to make that mechanical.
  • 2disbetter - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    This wasn't made by a company, but by the keyboard enthusiasts collective. Reply
  • JarredWalton - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    The need for a raised center really has more to do with the position of the rest of the elements. If you're trying to type with the keyboard halves centered and close together in front of your body, yes, raising the middle and canting them would be desirable -- and of course you could add some foot rests to accomplish this. But if you move them apart so that you basically reach straight forward from your shoulders, it's far less of a concern. One thing I definitely think you need to try before drawing any more conclusions is to use a keyboard that doesn't have a staggered layout. The staggering was basically a factor of the time when it was first created, as it helped them to get the keys and mechanical levers together. With modern keyboards having replaced typewriters, there are far fewer moving parts and size and spacing can be as large or small as you want. I'm now using that Goldtouch Go!2 I mentioned in the final paragraph, and let me tell you I'm already very much missing the orthogonal layouts of the previous three keyboards. Reply
  • Findecanor - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Actually, the ErgoDox was designed to be titled. The point of having the keyboard split in two separate halves was so that you can customize the tilt, angle and distance to fit YOU. The Microsoft Natural Keyboard is locked in one position that can not be changed, and is (at least the older models, before the MS 4000) also flat on each half.

    The Massdrop "distribution" of the ErgoDox (it is an open design) does not contain any hardware for tilting, but an earlier case design (on had different bottoms with different tilts for different users. Massdrop chose the layered design because it was less expensive to make.
  • echtogammut - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Great series of reviews. After my last MS ergo keyboard died, I am now using a Razer Lycosa that I won in some contest or tournament and god my wrists hurt. I have a Kinesis circa 2000 sitting in one of my many parts bins, but I seem to recall the key actuation being too heavy. This review brought me back to an idea I had a while back, which was to make my own keyboard. It appears you can get backlit cherry keys for Ducky keyboards for $41-51 and I have the advantage of having my own, photoresist pcb lab, cnc machine and pick and place (assuming I decide to build a bunch). Looks like I will be figuring out my ideal layout, once I get back from vacation. :) Like you my hands seem to be a bit smaller that what manufactures seem think is the norm (the worst case of this was the Razer Nostromo... I think you needed hands like Chopin for that thing). Reply
  • WeaselITB - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Thanks for the review, Jarred. This seems closest so far, but I'm still looking for something curved like an MS Natural, but with mechanical keys. Why does a product like that seem more elusive than a genie riding a unicorn? I can't believe I'm the only person out there who would pay (and pay a goodly sum) for a nice high-quality keyboard like that, but mechanical keyboards are either the traditional straight-line affairs, or the really unique ones like this.

    First world problems, I guess.

  • JarredWalton - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    I suspect part of the problem is that the companies who invest the time and resources into creating an ergonomic keyboard with mechanical switches want to make sure that they create the best keyboard possible – in their opinion, naturally, but also backed up by some studies and research. I would assume that Kinesis and Truly Ergonomic (and Maltron, etc.) have looked at a variety of designs and concluded that their current solutions are the "best". Reply
  • woogitboogity - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    When the company Cherry (the Cherry MX switches) was cited this keyboard earned quite a bit of respect from me.

    I am a programmer and student physics researcher who has done not just personal hacking but work designing systems of sensors and switches for use controlling experiments at DOE National Labs. While drooling over the Datahand keyboard (the $1200 super keyboard for the rich and those who have carpel tunnel that have to bite the bullet) I once went on a quest to find the lightest activation force switch I could find. This was of course a lever limit switch (long level means longer travel distance but less force) but I also searched for practical switches of the type that get ordered en masse for human input devices. I knew when I started looking up model numbers and started coming up with hits to logitech and similar companies I was in the right area.

    Cherry was the company that consistently came up when it came to the lightest activation force switches from the big companies like Digi-key and Newark, whether they were limit switches or button switches.
  • Exirtis - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    I'd love to read a review of the Datahand Professional II, particularly since most of the reviews I've come across are rather old, lacking in comparisons to other ergonomic keyboards, or were evaluated over too short of a term to be useful.

    That's where a review from you would be great, since you're in a position to offer a much more definitive & useful review than is currently available—important, as the price is rather extreme in comparison to other keyboards (it's currently listed at $995). And so on a typical budget, a person would have to be out of their mind to buy one without high confidence as to whether it might be worth it for them.

    So, do you think a review is possible? Or is the Datahand too out there even for you guys?
  • JarredWalton - Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - link

    I'm more than willing to try one, if they'll send a review unit. I'm not in a position to spend $1000 on a keyboard/input device, but I've sent them an email so we'll see. Honestly, I haven't seen or heard much of the DataHand since about 2002/2003, other than some community discussions, and they apparently went off the market for a while (a supply issue I guess).

    I have to say that their website isn't encouraging, with some errors on pages cropping up and a general lack of recent information. It also looks like the hardware hasn't been updated in quite some time, given that they have PS/2 adapters for the mouse and keyboard, with a $20 USB converter required for most modern systems. But like I said, I've sent a request so I'll be interested to see if they respond.
  • JarredWalton - Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - link

    So both of my email messages bounced from their servers. It appears DataHand is now defunct. Wikipedia has this to say (

    "DataHand Systems, Inc. announced in early 2008 that it was ceasing to market and sell its keyboards. The company web site states that due to supplier issues, the company will not sell the DataHand keyboard 'until a new manufacturer can be identified.' However, the company plans a final, limited production run to satisfy existing customers. In January 2009, the company's website started taking orders for a 'limited number of new DataHand Pro II units'."

    Given the cost and the apparent inability to support new customers, I unfortunately have to conclude that the DataHand is a dead end.
  • Exirtis - Thursday, August 29, 2013 - link

    Too bad. It always looked interesting.

    You know, I've always gotten the feeling that the company was more run by researchers who didn't really know how to run a business that well – or get manufacturing costs worked out, apparently – and this leads me to believe that this feeling was correct. Sad days.
  • Exirtis - Thursday, August 29, 2013 - link

    And thank you for responding, by the way. Reply
  • R-Type - Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - link

    A broken keyboard. Because we need more wires and piece-parts on our desks. Reply
  • John Green - Wednesday, October 01, 2014 - link

    I am inviting to the shop or for new parts for your ErgoDox Reply
  • Bob Todd - Thursday, August 29, 2013 - link

    I like to read these, but I'll stick with my cheapo non-mechanical Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 :). Reply
  • Choppedliver - Friday, August 30, 2013 - link

    Programmers will never give up a keyboard. Why? You dont sit there and type code like you are reading a story out loud. At least not often. Much of the time you are sitting there trying to figure out what you are going to do , how you are going to do it, and googling how others have already done it. Reply
  • boli - Friday, August 30, 2013 - link

    You need to know that the ErgoDox you received for review is special in multiple ways:
    1. it has labeled key caps
    2. it has a weird layout. Click "defaults" then "QWERTY" in the web configurator to see a more standard configuration.
    3. Your configuration does not have any layer push keys. Those can enable/disable a layer until the layer is popped again, which could have voided one of your criticisms.

    Key (grid) spacing is the very same on the ErgoDox as it is on the TECK, the Kinesis, or most standard keyboards! Feel free to measure it. Keys on the Advantage are closer due to the curvature, of course.

    Background: I have 3 Kinesis Advantage (two with Cherry reds, one with Cherry browns), a TECK (brown), and 2 ErgoDox (one with Cherry blues, one with Cherry clears, 3rd with reds on order). I've been using the Advantage for years and the TECK and ErgoDox for weeks.

    Cheers, boli
  • JarredWalton - Saturday, August 31, 2013 - link

    I discussed the configurator quite a bit, along with the power it offers, including how to add an integrated 10-key with a layout that I like more. I'm not sure how you seem to miss that I understand this is a highly configurable keyboard, and that the layout on my unit does not necessarily have to be the same as others. In fact, I highlighted this (extensively) in the review. Also, the layout I have does indeed have layer push/pop (really just the Dvorak switch); as for the criticism this would have voided... I'm not even sure which criticism you're referring to, so please enlighten me.

    I also noted (more than once) the fact that labeled keys are not standard; I wish they were, or at least wish there was an easy (inexpensive) way to get them. Some people may prefer blanks, simply because you can then configure the layout however you want, but I personally like having key labels -- it really helps with the initial learning curve, plus people other than yourself can actually use the keyboard if needed.

    Regarding the spacing and the keys, yes, the spacing is the same as on the TECK, though the layouts are obviously completely different. However, coming from the Kinesis Advantage it's a pretty big change, and the result is that I feel the ErgoDox (in this design) is a better fit for larger hands. I'm not small handed by any means, but the distance between the thumb pads and the rest of the keys is pretty large compared to the Kinesis, and that alone makes for a typing experience that some may find less appealing.

    Anyway, the main point I'm trying to convey with this review is the customization options, which are truly awesome, and the fact that pretty much everything else is going to be highly subjective. I don't dislike the ErgoDox by any means, but for pure typing duties I'd still go with the Kinesis.
  • boli - Thursday, September 05, 2013 - link

    Upon re-reading your review, I realize I must have missed some stuff so my comments weren't all appropriate, my apologies.

    Yes you did talk about the configurator later, after discussing the particularities of the "random" layout your unit came with. I still think the layout of your unit is weird, and most people might be better off with the default QWERTY layout (plus some individual tweaks), which is somewhat closer to the Kinesis Advantage layout.

    I'd have been interesting to see what you ended up with if you'd received an ErgoDox with blank keycaps and initial layout. I like labeled keys as well, but they get in the way of experimenting in my opinion.
    In my experience other people are thrown off anyway given the grid layout they're not used to, and the increased use of the thumbs (Backspace and Enter in particularly).
    As for learning, I think one is better off printing the layout and attaching it to the display, until it is no longer needed - it's easier to see than letters printed below one's fingers. ;)

    The criticism I meant was "holding down Fn the whole time isn’t something I want to do", which applies to the unit you were sent, but not the default, which has the 10-key on layer 1, and it features layer 1 push and pop keys.

    Yes, the thumb cluster feels further away than on the Kinesis, that's not what was said in the review though: "...the keys are somewhat larger and spaced out more than on the TECK and Kinesis keyboards, ..."

    Something I find unfortunate is the key caps that massdrop chose for some of the keys, in particular the two top keys in each thumb cluster - having used a Kinesis you know that it's much taller keys are easier to press without pressing the ones below. The 1x2 keys in the thumb cluster are quite different from the Kinesis ones as well - and I noticed those on your unit are different than the one included in the DCS key cap set.

    About gaming: I've been using a Kinesis Advantage for 5+ years and game quite a bit - mostly StarCraft 2 nowadays - and it works well, if you can put all the keys you need on the left half. With the ErgoDox you can even move the right half out of the way and put the mouse there instead, which is quite comfortable in my opinion.

    For inspiration, this is what I'm currently using:
    - only one extra layer with numpad, F-keys and arrows in normal configuration (didn't get rid of the layer 2, but there's no access to it)
    - layer toggle keys for both thumbs
    - numbers shifted 1 position left to make using them feel the same as on a regular (non-grid) keyboard
    - arrows on left hand for concurrent right hand mousing
    - second Enter on left hand, when right hand is on mouse

    From the 3 keyboards my favorite is also the Kinesis - its shape is hard to beat, though I will always be wondering what a Maltron keyboard feels like, the granddaddy of ergonomic keyboards. :) The ErgoDox is a close second, with better configurability (teensy FTW) and a few nice to have extra keys. The TECK is also nice but does not nearly have enough thumb buttons for my liking.

    I'm glad you reviewed all of these keyboards and hope you will try more.

    Also, Colemak is a nice layout indeed, can recommend it heartily. The switch is tough though, harder and lasts longer than adjusting to a new keyboard in my experience.
  • praftman - Sunday, September 01, 2013 - link

    Datahand and SafeType. Those would be interesting reviews. Reply
  • mediaconvert - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - link

    Personally I have noticed that laptop/scrabble tile keyboards are less stressful on the hands. I think it might be the lower travel distance of the keys. If you are suffering from keyboard related stress you might want to give it a try. Reply
  • FKname - Friday, January 24, 2014 - link

    It's called Groupon, "The idea behind the site is a bit like.." Groupon, not Kickstarter. It's not at all like Kickstarter (which funds things that don't exist yet), unless your criteria for similarity is if _money_ is involved - in which case it's like Target, or Sears, a bank, or maybe your wallet? Which? Pick? Reply

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