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  • dishayu - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    Completely agree with the opening statement. My friends ask me why i keep buying "gaming" hardware even though i don't play games. I always have a hard time explaining that it's just a marketing gimmick for top quality peripherals. It has some truth to it, because the gaming usage scenario does require better feedback and precision which come with these high quality parts. My dad liked my deathadder so much that he decided to nick it for use in his office. Reply
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  • nikolas04 - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    Hi very nice review , i would like to ask about linux compatibility , i have 2 computers , desktop & laptop with ubuntu and now that steam has one foot on linux i have started playing games from my library . I have a logitech g500 very nice with linux compatibility and i am very happy with it , what about roccat? can you change dpi with a button on the mouse? thanks in advance Reply
  • tim_roccat - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    Check out the Roccat website. You will find a link to Linux drivers for almost every Roccat product http://www.roccat.org/Support/ Reply
  • JeBarr - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    "...and I look forward to getting more of their hardware in for testing."

    Can't wait!

    I was looking at the Roccat surround headset recently but couldn't afford the gamble. Up to now I've been relying on the LTG Magnum with two pairs in the last six years. Was hoping to find something with a bit more punch and still haz muh Sauron eye on Roccat. The price is up there but if they're good quality I can overlook that.
    Reply
  • Subyman - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    It's a hard sell when a g500 is $45 on amazon. I just retired an old Razer Diamondback after years of service for a G500. Great mouse for extremely cheap. Reply
  • jigglywiggly - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    please test the sensors in these mice
    draw circles in paint
    get a turntable and measure the malfunction speed
    also test if they work on all mousepads

    try synthetics like aim400kg to see if you perform better on other mice vs different ones

    my friend buys one mice per sensor and he is very picky since he plays at 108cm/360

    we both get 73,600 on aim400kg

    although i use 28cm/360 ingame
    Reply
  • lyeoh - Thursday, February 28, 2013 - link

    I suppose Capsule Review means not a full Anandtech review?

    Might consider including some of the following in a full review:
    e.g. max polling rate
    surface compatibility - wood, glass, laminates, black glossy surface, black matte, etc. Also state surface used for the benchmarks/tests.
    Benchmarks/tests:
    -latency - button and movement latency
    -mouse malfunction speed.
    -reproducibility in X, Y and both axis - e.g. set the OS mouse config to no acceleration then repeatedly move the mouse physically from point A to B and back to A again, how far is the mouse pointer on screen. repeat test at higher speeds and higher iterations.
    -does 5 cm horizontally move the mouse pointer the same distance as 5 cm vertically? Do physical circles end up being circles on screen or ovals or worse?
    -maximum lift height before motion stops being detected.
    -max/average lift/place jitter (how much the mouse pointer moves when lifting the mouse straight up and then placing it straight down - can test by locking the mouse down and moving the surface instead).
    -audibility - clicks etc (dB)
    Reply
  • jigglywiggly - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    there is no reason to use the g500
    the sensor isn't that good
    g400 is better

    optical mice are better in general, the deathadder 4g has the best sensor in any mice, even better than the old one which is surprising. works better on different surfaces too

    i use the g9x though, sensor is bad, built in mouseaccel, and it doesn't track that smoothly.
    noticibly worse than my abyssus, which i used before it

    however, the grip on the g9x is too good. (I don't use the shell) and for my 28cm/360 it's not bad.

    k1llsen also uses the g9x
    Reply
  • cigar3tte - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    G400 does not have the wheel tilt, nor the braided USB cable. Some of us to find those to be deal breakers vs the G500.

    I'm currently holding onto my G9 (not G9x). Found it to be the best among the many I've tried (G400, G500, G600, G700, Naga, Naga Epic).

    One thing I still want on a mice but never find, is for the two thumb buttons to be vertically laid out instead of horizontal.
    Reply
  • Kalessian - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    They never tested lift off distance either, or even mentioned if you can change the poll rate?

    Though to be fair this is not the site to look at when meticulously judging gaming mice.

    I have a first gen deathadder which has been retired to office use, an abyssus which I just could not get used to grip-wise, and have returned to using the WMO, which I developed my fingertip/claw hybrid style on. It's a huge pain to keep at 500mhz, though, and I feel that most pros have moved on to newer mice, but I don't have the money to buy each of them to try out for a week to see if the grip is compatible.
    Reply
  • JPForums - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    there is no reason to use the g500
    the sensor isn't that good
    g400 is better

    optical mice are better in general, ...


    That statement requires a lot of qualification that you don't present. Optical mice are better in general IF you are using it on a cloth mouse pad. Laser mice don't perform to their potential on cloth mouse pads. To be fair, this is situation you see most often.

    Laser mice track on a wider array of surfaces and are therefore better than optical on surfaces that they have trouble tracking on. Also, it can be argued that Laser is better on rigid, textured surfaces. In general, laser is more sensitive (not to be confused with more accurate).

    The only inherent advantage/disadvantage between the two is that Laser are smaller and can therefore support higher resolutions. This also means they use a smaller aperture and are more susceptible to dust if they aren't cleaned. In practice, though, laser sensors employ prediction to smooth traces due to the fact that their greater sensitivity reveals jitter in the movements of most peoples mouse movements. Unfortunately, when low ratios of cursor movement per dot (high cm/360), this can also have a negative effect on the mouse movements. Built in mouseaccel isn't universally applied, but like prediction, doesn't really manifest itself very much at high ratios of cursor movement per dot.

    In conclusion, currently, optical mice are better for people who use a suitable surface and prefer 45cm/360 (rough guess) or larger cursor speed. Lasers are better for people who prefer 15cm/360 or smaller (or have non-optimal tracking surfaces). The cross over point isn't clear.

    All that said, it doesn't matter how well your sensor tracks if the mouse ergonomics prevent you from moving how you want to in the first place. You just get a well traced crooked line. The Razer Lachesis had such terrible ergonomics that it forced jitter every time you clicked one of the main mouse buttons. Not that it tracked perfectly otherwise, but there was no practical way to snipe even if it were.

    I've used a lot of Logitech mice (though not the G400), number of razer mice (though not the deathadder 4G), and a few others, but I still haven't found a better optical mouse than the MX518. In most settings, I prefer my G500 due to my preference for a low cm/360 except when sniping. Of course, the MX518's ergonomics make it better for me than most other laser mice.
    Reply
  • cactusdog - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    I bought the Kone+ about a year ago, it ws the most expensive mouse but the mouse didnt live up to the high price.

    Problem 1. In a very short period of time, the grippy coating wears off and you have finger wear marks on the mouse making it look old and beatup in no time.

    Problem 2, Changing the driver settings takes a very long time. With so many settings I thought I would test out a few different settings, So you change one setting , then click apply, then wait......and wait.....and wait maybe 20 seconds later the new setting is activated. If you want to test more settings,forget it, it takes so long I just gave up.

    Problem 3. Driver updates come with firmware and the Roccat update process is by far the worst updating software I have seen in any device in over 12 years. You install the driver, then the automated firmware update invariably fails forcing you to dig into program files to find the stand alone firmware exe to update firmware manually. Drivers wont work until new firmware is applied.

    Problem 4, Early mice had a dodgy mousewheel problem although I believe they have fixed that one.

    The mouse feels ok in the hand but too many problems for a highend mice and unfortunately you dont find out until its too late. It has the kind of problems that arent mentioned in reviews.
    Reply
  • 053EC2A5B2 - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    Thanks for the great review.

    I'm on the market for a new mouse, can you recommend anymore ergonomic mouse that is titled for right-hand, maybe with less bells and lights and cheaper?
    Reply
  • Slash3 - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    Roccat Kova[+] - it's great. I bought one a while back after watching some youtube reviews and looking at the high res mouse pictures. Has a nice, wide rubber scroll wheel, two buttons on either side (ambidextrous in function and shape) and tracks great. It has the same profile software with the ability to use a shift button function, and has little glowing LEDs that can be changed to cycle, set for a color or disabled. I let it do a slow "breathing" cycle and find that it doesn't annoy me at all.

    Plus, it's ~$50 on Newegg or your favorite web store. Just punch in Kova and it'll come up.
    Reply
  • 053EC2A5B2 - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    yes roccat mouses look great, and so far are my best option but I'm looking for more good quality mouses that are NOT ambidextrous. Reply
  • Amp300 - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    The Mionix Naos 3200 (~$50) is the best inexpensive ergonomic right-handed "gaming" mouse I was able to find. I have medium-sized hands and the mouse shell feels like it was molded specifically for me.

    http://mionix.net/products/mionix-3200/
    Reply
  • Khato - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    I'll second that - I actually bought a Roccat Kone[+] first and while I liked it initially not having anywhere good to rest the ring finger got to being extremely bothersome. On the logitech G5 style there's an adequate ledge to the right of the right mouse button that works quite well for that, but there's no analog on the Kone - instead there's a smaller amount of space at a less ideal angle and a sharp corner. Now I acknowledge that this won't be a problem for everyone as some are fine with having their ring finger on the side, but yeah, that bugged me.

    Comparatively the Mionix Naos ergonomics are great. About the only problem being that it can be a bit difficult comparatively to pick up the mouse if you're so inclined.
    Reply
  • quas - Thursday, June 06, 2013 - link

    There's actually a problem for Naos that all the reviews I've seen didn't mention. The material surface used attracts sweat like crazy. In just 5 minutes of usage, it makes my palm sweat more and then the sweat stains really permeate through making it impossible to remove. The Roccat Kone may have the ring finger problem but the surface material used is superb, it doesn't attract sweat and it doesn't make me sweat either. Reply
  • Pheesh - Thursday, February 28, 2013 - link

    Definitely the G400. Least flawed sensor you can get and not that expensive. It's a favorite of FPS gamers. Reply
  • Azethoth - Thursday, February 28, 2013 - link

    I think the most important thing is to match your hand size to the mouse. I have large hands and most of the hotly recommended mice are for tiny child hands. I cramp up using them. For me the Cyborg RATT MMO 7 is just the thing. It adjusts to hand size. It is not cheap though. There are plainer versions of the mouse that are FPS oriented. Reply
  • Goodtwist - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    My first generation Kone would be perfect if it wasn't for the silicon/gummy surface. Makes your palms sweat like crazy. Reply
  • Wall Street - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    I wonder how many of these reviews Dustin can do before he discovers the world of polling rates, angle snapping, error speed and liftoff distance. Reply
  • kagey - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    I'm still waiting for a good mouse to surface and these may be it.
    As Dustin is still using a G500 I am still using a G7 cause I like the quick swap batteries that are rechargable right in front you and being able to swap them out. It's got a few configurable buttons, nice feel and it's comfortable. Kinda like my wave keyboards.
    Reply
  • BrightCandle - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    For a lot of reviews Anandtech has a good reputation, rightly earned by using the best known testing techniques you can find. But when it comes to mice you haven't even tested the first thing or laid out the basic specs. I don't know why you even bothered. For mice reviews we need to know:

    - What sensor it is based on
    - How centrally placed the optical port is
    - Tested for jitter, acceleration, deacceleration, lift off distance, snapping and angle correction
    - Maximum tracking speed and how it behaves after that
    - How the sensor handles different types and colours of mouse mats
    - Its weight
    - The cord weight and type

    Your review doesn't contain a single technical component of what makes a mouse a mouse. With there being so few actual mice that do well in these tests it seems kind of vital to actually do these tests, because for gamers they matter. More to the point gamers might not know they matter and you ought to be breaking through and testing mice properly and showing gamers why they should care.

    This review was pointless like all your other mice reviews, get it to together or stop wasting your time.
    Reply
  • five_seven - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    u mad bro? Reply
  • WeaselITB - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    No, I agree with BrightCandle and Wall Street (above).

    Imagine if there was a monitor review that went up saying "Well, it can move up and down, the base is pretty, I like the feel of the buttons, and the colors are nice and color-y. There's an on-screen display, but it takes 10 seconds between button pushes to adjust the brightness, but that's a small gripe." Comments would be setting that reviewer on fire for not testing color accuracy, uniformity, etc. You know ... the things that actually matter when differentiating between monitors?

    This review, as BrightCandle said, doesn't cover ANY technical details about what makes this mouse different/better/worse than another mouse. The default 800dpi is all well and awesome, and the ability to adjust it is great (with a delay of up to 20 seconds in between settings, apparently), but if the polling rate is 10Hz I don't care what dpi setting you use, the mouse performance is going to suck. This review doesn't even get that far.

    Dustin, no offense to you personally, man, but these reviews are not up to the usual Anandtech quality standards. $90 is an awful lot of money to drop on a mouse when the best a review can come up with is a completely subjective "It's a good mouse."

    -Weasel
    Reply
  • Mumrik - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    The design doesn't exactly look foreign...

    http://imgur.com/rZ8Tgzd
    Reply
  • meshugge - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    Any chance for a review of the available mice for us left-handers? Reply
  • Spydermag68 - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    I am still using my Logitech left handed mouse that I bought 10 years ago. This is the last left hand mouse I have seen. I wish manufactures would make more left handed mice. Reply
  • augiem - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    This review feels like its more of a general user opinion of the mouse rather than a review. I didn't read anything about the mouse buttons. Are they responsive? How's the tactile feedback? Do you accidentally press them when resting on them? Do they have a loud and annoying click like most of the mice out there. I want to know this stuff for front and side buttons. How about the mouse wheel? How stiff is it? Does it have very strong notching that fights you, is it too loose and not accurate enough, does it feel tightly set into the body without any extra play or jiggle side to side, does the click-in require excessive force which could tire out your middle figer during a long Maya session? How about glide feet? Does it glide easily on a hard mouse pad, cloth mouse pad, desktop surface? Does it have tracking issues on any surface type tested? Are they replaceable? How much? Any special treatment of the mouse cable? How do different users with different grips feel about it? Claw grip, palm grip, etc.

    Overall, I expected a lot more information from a mouse review than how it feels comfortable and "perfect".
    Reply
  • augiem - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    I'd also like to see some stress testing if possible. Longevity and durability are something that's very hard to judge when it comes to all new products. I had a MS Intellimouse Optical that I used for like 12 years before it started having trouble. That was a good buy indeed! Reply
  • jigglywiggly - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    to jp
    the mx518 mouse blows

    my LG in quake live was noticibly worse

    the 125hz polling rate, and the grip are yuck

    feet are bad too, and I had the original 5 feet.

    much better mice now
    Reply
  • DaveSimmons - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    I probably just missed it in the article, but can this be changed"

    >> "Users are liable to be confused by the back button being used for "Easy-Shift" instead, but that's a minor grievance."

    The thumb-button is the one I most want to use in games, besides the left and right. I want it to be a button, not a shift applied to other buttons.
    Reply
  • shaolin95 - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    I held to my MX518 for a long time and the replacements I tried never stayed home for long.
    Then I got the Kone XTD and I was blown away!
    I totally love the mouse.

    About the settings...you need to upgrade it and the changes are instant. I did it and I can tell it works so it was a firmware upgrade needed, nothing else.

    I even got the Alumic pad for it and love the features where it "calibrates" to your gaming surface. Not sure how much that really does but it feels good :D
    Reply
  • birru - Wednesday, February 27, 2013 - link

    For the people who have issues with this article, you guys do realize this is a capsule review, right? It's not going to get very or granular or technical. Is your opinion that AnandTech should stick to more thorough reviews and skip the lower calorie capsule reviews entirely?

    Personally, I find the review handy enough, but then I'm not going to nerd out over every technical detail of a mouse. I trust that if the polling rate was truly atrocious to the point of being subjectively noticeable Dustin would have mentioned it. That said, I am surprised that he didn't even reprint the manufacturer's specs, as that covers a lot of these details. That would hardly have taken much extra effort.
    Reply
  • BrightCandle - Thursday, February 28, 2013 - link

    The review has no contents, its not a review its a user opinion piece on irrelevant details.

    There is no value in these reviews, it tells me nothing about the mouse, I can't buy on the basis of this review and others like it. Arguably that is the point of a review, to inform the user on good v bad v best products and to inform purchase. This review fails to do that other than telling me the price, but not what I get for it. Its worthless. I would rather not have seen it at all.
    Reply
  • sheh - Thursday, February 28, 2013 - link

    Why are mice so expensive? You'd think 2ndary players would fight on price, but they don't really do that. A mouse has just a bit of electronics, and whether the plastic mold is this or that shouldn't matter much. There are a few extras that cost most to produce, but $40-50 for a good mouse seems overpriced. Half the price makes more sense to me.

    Below are some random Chinese mice on eBay for $4-9. Anyone thinks Logitechs cost 10 times more to produce?

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/360604948297
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/281040167343
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/400402499608

    And, why aren't wide scroll wheels common?
    http://www.game-debate.com/mouse/mo_pic.php?mo_id=...

    I have a plain A4Tech mouse with a wide wheel, and it makes it so much more useful as a button. It's also more comfortable to rest the finger on in general.
    Reply
  • HisDivineOrder - Thursday, February 28, 2013 - link

    ...because I paid $55 for my Razer Naga. Not the silly green or red ones, not the Hex crap, either.

    The regular, blue, original classic. The great one.

    So close to $100, I'd want my mouse to be a lot more supreme than this...
    Reply
  • theangryintern - Thursday, February 28, 2013 - link

    Since they are both the same price, which one would be better? The ROCCAT XTD or the Mionix 8200? Reply
  • shaolin95 - Thursday, February 28, 2013 - link

    I went through a long research and those were my two top choices. I ended up with the ROCCAT and I couldnt be happier but the 8200 seems to be awesome as well so I dont think you can go wrong. Reply
  • BrokenCrayons - Thursday, February 28, 2013 - link

    Neither of ROCCAT's mice look overstated or obnoxiously "loud" and I like the idea of adjustable weights. While I'm partial to an Evoluent VerticalMouse 4 series at work because of the acknowledgement to ergonomics, I can't see myself gaming on something that's turned sideways. The Kone XTD in particular catches my interest. The only thing I'd like to see added to the design is (bear with me on this) a micro SDHC card slot buried someplace in it. With programmable profiles stored on the mouse, it would be nice to see some ability to cart a game, documents, or portable app suite around with me and maybe the mouse's drivers so I could drop it between PCs without needing to tote a thumb drive. I only suggest user replacable flash for the sake of upgradeability and, depending on how hard you thrash your portable storage, fault tolerance.

    Despite my probably unreasonable wishlist, it still seems worth a closer look and maybe a purchase.
    Reply
  • graison - Thursday, February 28, 2013 - link

    Got an XTD last week, upgrading from an MS intellimouse, it's awesome. Well made, super customizable software, nice feel. You can't go wrong if you got $90. Reply
  • BadVoodoo - Friday, March 01, 2013 - link

    i complained about the long apply time at roccat support a while ago and they told me to set up the kone monitor.exe and the option.exe as exceptions in microsoft security essentials. The apply time dropped from 30 to 2 seconds. Reply
  • B3an - Saturday, March 02, 2013 - link

    Got one of these the other day, upgraded from a Logitech G5 and had loads of other gaming mice before that. This is miles better including the software which is excellent, i've not found one bad thing about the Kone XTD so far... best mouse i've used.

    I stayed away from the Kone+ as it didn't have a braided cable and the scroll wheel seemed poor from user comments. Both these issues have been fixed on the XTD. Also didn't like the tacky silver logo on the Kone+ and silver paint on mice ALWAYS gets worn off after a few months usage, so atleast on the XTD it's just a thin silver outline. I'd prefer no silver at all but thats the only small issue i have with this mouse.
    Reply
  • snoukkis - Thursday, March 07, 2013 - link

    Dude, it's a gaming mouse. You barely even reviewed it. :(

    The higher dpi is not meant for making it faster, but to enhance precision.

    1. max out the dpi in driver
    2. leave "windows pointer speed" setting to "default" / "+-0" / "middle" / "1:1" (different names)
    3. disable windows mouse acceleration
    4. reduce sensitivity in-game to compensate for driver dpi setting

    Now you are able to make more precise movements. If the game is poorly programmed, the in-game menu mouse speed will be crazy fast like in windows because the sensitivity affects only camera movement.

    Ideally you should test with a game that meets the following:
    - high FPS
    - low input lag
    - no mouse acceleration (in addition to windows setting)
    - no dead zone (poor console ports might have this)
    - no vsync
    - sensitivity affects both camera and menu speed

    Did I forget anything? I'd recommend Quake 1. Anyone else want to suggest something more modern? Except for menu speed, Minecraft meets those requirements (disable vsync and set view distance to tiny to max out fps).

    And as mentioned in previous comments, you should note the poll rate. It's important.
    Reply
  • snoukkis - Thursday, March 07, 2013 - link

    more to perfect game:
    - no movement smoothing/filtering (adds input lag and hides possible problems)
    Reply
  • Galbias - Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - link

    The XTD looks tempting; I use a Cooler Master Storm Inferno myself and I love the "Shift" functionality that it has since I find myself running out of buttons to assign on most standard mice, but it seems to be a rather uncommon feature. The XTD seems to have more assignable buttons in the end since it has horizontal scrolling and assignable vertical scrolling so I may look at getting one. Thanks for the review. Reply
  • GullLars - Friday, March 29, 2013 - link

    I've got a Roccat Kone[+] (plus), and before that i had the original Roccat Kone for 4 years. I made the switch from MX518, which is basically the prior iteration of the G500.

    The reason it takes a while to apply changes in the software is because they are flashed onto the storage in the mouse, which is a self-contained unit. Everything you can access in the software is hosted on the system integrated in the mouse, you can plug your mouse into a system that doesn't have the software and you still retain all your configurations, profiles and macros. This is a big selling point for users that can make use of this functionality, be it gamers that travel and use other machines, or for productivity work on many different machines. A mouse is not too big to carry with you if it increases productivity and ergonomy notably.

    I don't game as much anymore, but i buy enthusiast grade gaming equipment because it's made for people who have high requirements for their eqipment and don't settle. I spend so many hours in front of the computer that +$50 for (each of the) peripherials is worth it, and because of typically higher quality the TCO if the equipment lasts 3 years or more is not that much higher.
    Reply

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