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  • dagamer34 - Friday, September 02, 2011 - link

    The problem with most laptops is that when they try to stand out in a good way, the fail and end up doing the exact opposite. A "stock" Windows laptop that had no cruft or extra crap would actually do quite well in the market I believe (but it wouldn't be subsidized from those "free" apps).

    The sad thing is if the market really cared what kind of computer they got, they wouldn't spend money on some $300 POS and then complain when it doesn't work, and instead go for something a bit more… worthwhile.
    Reply
  • MonkeyPaw - Friday, September 02, 2011 - link

    That's actually where Macs come in to play. You buy a Mac, you get 0 crapware preinstalled. Also consider that Apple makes a solid unit with a decent LCD panel, and maybe they start proving they are worth that extra money. While I'm not really an Apple fanboy, I do like their product design and general build quality.

    That said, you can fix a Windows 7 PC right out of the box by using ABR and your appropriate OS install disk. Talk about a big improvement.
    Reply
  • retrospooty - Friday, September 02, 2011 - link

    Crapware has always been a drawback when buying an OEM PC. All the major makers put it on... However, anyone that knows enough to ID crapware can re-install their own windows and save the rediculous overspending. Mac isnt a whopping 5% marketshare for no reason you know. =) Reply
  • KPOM - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Apple has about 90% of the market share in the over-$1000 market, where, despite Intel's intentions, most of the Ultrabooks will be competing in.

    Sure, there will be some sub-$1000 models using Core i3 or HDD to start with, but I'm guessing that for the first year or two the vast majority of Ultrabooks will be over $1000, at least the ones with comparable specifications to the MacBook Air line.
    Reply
  • retrospooty - Monday, September 05, 2011 - link

    "I'm guessing that for the first year or two the vast majority of Ultrabooks will be over $1000, at least the ones with comparable specifications to the MacBook Air line. "

    No way... That's the great thing about PC and competition. Within 6 months, we will be seeing these same spec'd models from $700- $800. Prices drop fast when competition exists.
    Reply
  • lukarak - Tuesday, September 06, 2011 - link

    Of course we will, because by that time that will no longer be the same spec, but lower, as the technology will move forward. Reply
  • cptcolo - Thursday, September 08, 2011 - link

    First as Anand pointed out, a non-SSD laptop is NOT an ultrabook.

    The real problem with all the ultrabook models released so far, is that they are inferior Apple MacBook Air clones. Sure they have the similar hardware (CPU, GPU, SSD) but they have smaller batteries, poor low resolution screens, and inferior build quality. Worst of all they will be roughly the same price as the Air. As CNET showed it is possible to completely replace OSX with Windows 7.

    Lenovo could make an Ultrabook that was better than the 13" Air by using their Thinkpad Keyboard, with a screen on par with the Air, a better SSD, and at least a 50Wh battery. I doubt it will happen. And all Ultrabook manufacturers will wonder why no one wants to buy their computers.
    Reply
  • melgross - Sunday, September 04, 2011 - link

    The problem is that while most everyone dislikes CES ware, it lowers the cost of the computer by 10-20%. so either no crapware, and higher prices, or otherwise.

    So, considering that, do people really hate crapwRe? Well, yes, because they don't understand what it does to their pricing. It's one reason why Macs may cost a bit more, though not with MacBook Airs apparently.
    Reply
  • iwod - Friday, September 02, 2011 - link

    At these sort of price range they are going to have a hard time winning against Apple.

    13" Inch Macbook Air Start with $1299, comes with $100 discount on HP Printers, and $100 App Store Coupon + $50 discount if you are student.

    Those who are willing to spend over $1000 will surely be able to afford just a little more for Macbook Air.

    I think the way Apple force the industry to copy them actually shows their customer the value they are getting if they are comparing to an Ultrabook.
    Reply
  • inighthawki - Friday, September 02, 2011 - link

    So for an extra $300, I get $100 off a product I'm not going to buy, $100 in apps (software is easy to give away for free, not to mention you can likely find most of it for free on a Windows PC), and $50 IF I'm a student (which doesn't apply to most people). MBA has a slightly higher res screen, but for $300 savings, integrated ethernet, a third USB port (which is USB 3.0), VGA/HDMI outputs, and the ability to run a vastly superior OS, I'll choose the toshiba over a MBA anyday. Reply
  • lukarak - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    I don't know how you can place HDMI over DP? Running large displays, plus, DP transforms into anything, thus saving space, while HDMI has to have a VGA separately, one of the most bulky connectors. Also, i just found another picture of this one from the bottom side. Sorry, but cooling from the underside is just unacceptable on such a small form factor that's going to be running on soft surfaces alot.

    And if you want to run your vastly superior OS, you can do it on both, can't mention that as a pro for the toshiba :D
    Reply
  • inighthawki - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    "And if you want to run your vastly superior OS, you can do it on both, can't mention that as a pro for the toshiba :D "

    Sure you can, because it's another $150 to run it on the Mac.
    Reply
  • lukarak - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Yes, but then it's not the ability. Both are able to do it. Reply
  • KPOM - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Legally, the Toshiba isn't able to run OS X, and Toshiba doesn't provide OS X drivers for its hardware. Legally, a Mac can run Windows, and Apple provides Windows drivers for their Macs. Reply
  • melgross - Sunday, September 04, 2011 - link

    No, it's not more. PC companies are trying to get Intel to sell them processors at half price for their Ultrabooks, $100 just given to them, and help with design, because they can't compete on price with Apple. Reply
  • Exodite - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Because HDMI has widespread native adoption while mini-DP is all but useless?

    That'd be my guess anyway.
    Reply
  • lukarak - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Why would it be useless? It can transform into anything you might need, including both HDMI and VGA. There are very many laptops that have poor HDMI implementation, so you can't get 25x16 screens running from them (i belive it was introduced in 1.3) Reply
  • Exodite - Sunday, September 04, 2011 - link

    Because it has no native use and adapters defeat the purpose of having an ultraportable to begin with. Reply
  • lukarak - Sunday, September 04, 2011 - link

    Almost every new decent monitor has a display port. It has nothing to do with apple.

    Also, look at KPOM's post below.
    Reply
  • damianrobertjones - Sunday, September 04, 2011 - link

    ON every single machine we have in work and every laptop that I've had to fix over the years... none of them have DP.

    If the mac vanished tomorrow DP would vanish as well.
    Reply
  • lukarak - Sunday, September 04, 2011 - link

    Almost every new ATI card has a display port. Most new monitors have it as well.

    And mac isn't going anywhere. It grows more than the whole industry, so it is just the oposite.
    Reply
  • KPOM - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Many of these Ultrabooks have MiniHDMI ports, not full HDMI ports. I can buy a mDP-to-HDMI adapter just as easily as I can a MiniHDMI-to-HDMI adapter. Reply
  • B3an - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Why would people spend MORE for INFERIOR hardware? And i mean sane people that luckily theres still a lot of, and not people that buy something purely because it has a Apple logo.
    Many would certainly go for these ultrabooks over a Air. You get a way better deal here, overall better hardware, far better connectivity, and a real OS.
    Reply
  • lukarak - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Well, because unlike a desktop PC, hardware, or the performance of it, is not everything. The screen and the touchpad are worth quite a bit of extra money they want for their product. It has nothing to do with the logo. Also, MBA can run both OSes fully supported, which you can't do quite that easily on most other laptops. So it is not a plus just to be able to run the 'real OS' but a minus not to be able the not-real one. Reply
  • JarredWalton - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Except if you install Windows on a MacBook, you lose about a third of your battery life (because Apple doesn't even bother to optimize their Windows drivers/BIOS for lower power use). Reply
  • damianrobertjones - Sunday, September 04, 2011 - link

    To hte average joe in the street the COST if the deciding factor OVER and above a fancy trackpad Reply
  • lukarak - Tuesday, September 06, 2011 - link

    Well, not everyone buys everything cheapest. There is a saying, i'm not rich enough to buy cheap stuff. Reply
  • tommyj - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Laptops have never been about raw specs, they've always been about portability and basic content creation/manipulation on the go.

    If I wanted a workstation with raw grunt, I'd get a desktop or a W series Thinkpad - obviously neither of the two are particularly nice to carry around. Ultrabooks are meant to be responsive (the SSD does this) and extremely portable devices for quick content creation. Its not like low power Sandy Bridge processors are weak, they're more than enough for light Photoshop and Lightroom work.

    How things currently are, the Macbook Air still has the better resolution and screen ratio (16:10!!!), larger touchpad than this Toshiba ultrabook, and an operating system that actually makes use of the full power of the touchpad.

    Logo or no logo, I would still go for the Macbook Air every time because these PC manufacturers and Microsoft still haven't understood how to make good hardware and software for lightweight consumer laptops. Its slowly improving, judging by the pictures of these ultrabooks, but far too many expensive PC laptops still use sticky note sized touchpads, keyboards that exhibit flex, and rock bottom TN TFT panels: the Samsung Series 9 is the poster child of an expensive laptop that can't get the basics right.
    Reply
  • MadMinstrel - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Content creation? Really? If so, then it must be some special limited kind of content creation you're talking about. Like text editing. Laptops are good for text editing. If you connect a mouse you can even do some color correction on photographs. Otherwise, desktop replacements aside, I can't think of any real world production software that would deign to work reasonably well on a ULV processor, no real graphics chip to speak of and a non-ASIO sound chip. Laptops have always been about paperwork and web browsing, not content creation. Reply
  • lukarak - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Well it's not designed to be your primary machine, that was his point. But if you are showing your client something, there are some last minute changes or clarifications, you can change it on the go, some basic stuff, not make everything from scratch.

    And as such, there isn't much difference if a laptop will chew through something in 20 or 40 seconds. It's not that important.
    Reply
  • tommyj - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    You can do content creation on these things. Obvious they are not workstations but they are powerful enough to do some light photoshop and lightroom work.

    I've done it for quick jobs for clients and its faster than my old Core 2 Duo photoshop machine. Its not a monster but if you are skilled with the software, it doesn't take long to do basic photo editing. You people are spoilt when it comes to hardware strength...it doesn't matter that much anymore unless you are an absolute retard with the software.

    Obviously for engineering software that requires 3D rendering you would use this device. In that situation, you would be handed a Dell/HP workstation by CR Kennedy at no personal cost and not these for obvious reasons beyond specs.
    Reply
  • tommyj - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    would not* Reply
  • damianrobertjones - Sunday, September 04, 2011 - link

    Ultrabooks are about someone buying a machine not knowing what it can do so they can turn to their friend and say, "I've an ultrabook so I'm special"

    That would be the average joe.

    To the techies it's about performance and that it looks sexy.

    ANything else is simply made up
    Reply
  • KPOM - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Actually, as more specifications for Ultrabooks come out, the more it seems clear that the MacBook Air line is actually very competitively priced. Acer, ASUS, Toshiba, etc. are trotting out sub-$1000 models, but when you look closely they have lesser specifications (Core i3, or HDD, lower resolution etc.). The ones with the same chips, SSD, and resolution cost about the same or more. Reply
  • damianrobertjones - Sunday, September 04, 2011 - link

    ...because they know that fools will buy them just like people throw the extra money on the air to simply look 'cool'.

    Come on now... I've heard the excuse before, "I want something light". Yeah ok, you want something cool. (Like the Sony Vaio with the Atom cpu that my managing director wanted who later complained about the speed EVEN THOUGH I did warn him that the Atom sucked.

    If Apple were not seen as being 'cool' do you REALLY think that people would be buying the air with it's price premium?

    No
    Reply
  • tommyj - Sunday, September 04, 2011 - link

    "If Apple were not seen as being 'cool' do you REALLY think that people would be buying the air with it's price premium?"

    No, when it used the mechanical hard disk. Yes, when it used the solid state drive. The Macbook Air was catapulted into prominence after it replaced its godawful mechanical hard disk to a solid state drive.

    Turns out putting a solid state drive in any computing device, even a netbook, turns it from a slow piece of shit to a fast responsive machine for just about everything. And guess what, consumers want that.

    Marketing isn't just advertising people, if you've ever worked in a real marketing department you would know that. The Sandy Bridge processors and Thunderbolt theoretically solves many of the performance and connectivity problems as well so yes, they are very attractive machines.
    Reply
  • Penti - Monday, September 05, 2011 - link

    Well the first Air's where just normal ultra-portables with normal LV cpu's and it's normal high price. Now thanks to CULV on Core 2 Duo and other consumer variants following that the machines is now more suitable for consumers and are more in of a consumer price range. The SSD still makes the 13.3" MBAir a $1299-1599 USD machine. Something like Lenovo's U300s starts at $1199.99 with 128GB SSD and ends up to about 1300 with 256GB SSD. The HDD 2008 Macbook Air did start at $1,799. Won't differ much as both now have consumer priced cpu's. If you skip the SSD you do get sub 1000 machines, not many years ago similar machines would have been a good 2000 dollars. It makes ultraportables definitively with reach for consumers (willing to spend 900-1300 dollars).

    That in itself is a lot cooler then $2000-2500 machines just a few could or would buy :)

    They are hardly DTR's though, but MBAir 13 comes close and will be perfectly fine for most buyers as their only PC. Those won't really take advantage of the DP and Thunderbolt, but for high end users that's nice (HDMI limits to 1920x1200 with current gen graphics). For those who will use the thunderbolt display it's a nice solution too. For those who will run pro-hardware through the thunderbolt port it will not really matter as they end up with MBP15 any way. To bad most machines have only HDMI now days. It kinda forces one to buy business machines.
    Reply
  • cptcolo - Thursday, September 08, 2011 - link

    Completely agree iwod. From a value perspective the current Ultrabook lineup does not compete well with the Macbook Air (especially the $1299 base 13 inch model). This is because:
    - Smaller batteries
    - Low resolution, crappy screens (16:9 too, yuk)
    - Inferior build quality
    And windows users can replace mac OS w/ Windows 7 completely, as shown on CNET's "Windows 7 On The MacBook Air: Don't Go There"
    Reply
  • MrSpadge - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    .. they could use an eIPS display and a decent keyboard. But I guess that's asking for too much at 1000+$

    MrS
    Reply
  • tommyj - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    Yeah that's always bothered me. I know eIPS is not exactly cheap but when I pay $1,000 I expect a somewhat decent TFT panel even if its only TN. Instead PC manufacturers keep playing the downward race to see who can shove the most raw giggahertz and giggabites into plastic frames with rejected TN panels.

    As for the keyboard, you can't really fit the Thinkpad keyboard on something this thin unfortunately. As long as there isn't any flex, the chiclet keyboard is still pretty good after you get used to it.
    Reply
  • wintermute000 - Saturday, September 03, 2011 - link

    touchpad buttons

    I have a friend with an old MBP who refuses to buy any more macs because he hates the buttonless touchpads. THis is also the single biggest turn off for me (and I actually LIKE OSX quite a bit, just not enough over W7 to overcome the buttonless conundrum + bang for buck issue).
    Reply
  • Jambe - Tuesday, September 13, 2011 - link

    Whoever designed and signed off on the glossy bezels on some of these devices needs to be slapped repeatedly until they cry and/or until they come up with a matte solution.

    OH HEY PEOPLE, YOU KNOW THE AREA THAT'LL BE TOUCHED ALL THE TIME AND IS EXTREMELY VISIBLE BECAUSE IT'S RIGHT NEXT TO THE DISPLAY?

    YEAH? YOU KNOW THAT SPOT? THE BEZEL?

    LET'S MAKE THAT AS GLOSSY AND REFLECTIVE AS WE CAN SO IT'LL SHOW LOADS OF SCRATCHES AND FINGERPRINTS.

    /snorts a line
    /twitches
    /turns back to the CAD workstation
    /shoves a pile of shiny tchotchkes and toys away from the keyboard
    /gets back to "work"
    Reply
  • Natter - Tuesday, March 06, 2012 - link

    i think Acer s3-951 may be worth more than Toshiba z830, because acer s3 have i5 but z830 only have i3. Although price of s3-951 more than z830,

    Although price of s3-951 more than z830, but if you want to buy laptop good performance and not expensive acer s3-951 will be good choice.

    if you want to find more acer s3-951 review please go to
    http://www.ultrabookprice.net

    Reply
  • aisukul - Monday, June 11, 2012 - link

    Except for card reader and audio connection, all connections are located on the back, thus supporting the clear and minimalist design. Reply

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