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  • adntaylor - Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - link

    On that chart with price / power, you need to be clearer...

    For price, you show the combined price for CPU + Chipset. For power, you say just the CPU... so 0.65W for the CPU... but you're conveniently ignoring the >2W figure for the chipset!!! This absolutely flatters Intel wherever possible.

    AMD are just as misleading - they describe the Geode LX as "1W" which excludes the non-CPU core parts of the chip (which is an integrated CPU + GMCH)

    Just please be honest - the figures are out there in the Intel datasheets... it takes 10 minutes to check.
    Reply
  • Clauzii - Friday, April 04, 2008 - link

    I still have a PowerVR 4MB addon card, runnung in tandem with a Rage128Pro. Quite a combination w. 15 FPS in Tombraider. Constant(!) 15FPS, that is..

    Amazing what they actually achieved back in 95!
    Reply
  • Clauzii - Friday, April 04, 2008 - link

    Ooops!

    Totally misplaced that. Sorry.
    Reply
  • wimaxltepro - Friday, April 04, 2008 - link

    The Atom represents a shift in processor architecture that is the most dramatic departure for Intel since introduction of x86 processors... the philosophy of how computing itself occurs from centralized processors to distributed processing based on an extension of the popular x86 instruction set.

    The Atom is not about the immediate prospects for the Atom or Nehalem products: we will likely see members of Intel's new product family be used in embedded applications in consumer products and in areas where specialized communications processors are more the rule. While not optimized for use in specific networking applications, the products capitalize on the wide range of support available in IT/Networking to develop common functions that leverage the low cost, low power/processing capability to be used as a common denominator for a wide range of applications.

    Intel has been built on the 'Wintel' architecture: massively integrated chips needed to handle the massively integrated operating systems and applications of Windows (and Apple) environments. The Atom allows migration and broadening out from that architectural motif to a very highly distributed architecture. So, the increased parallelism found in the internal chip architecture is enabling of changes in external system architectures and device applications that go well beyond the typical domain of Intel.. and right into the domain of 'personal wireless broadband' and SDWN, Smart Distributed Wireless broadband Network.

    The decisions about in-order vs. out of-order instruction streams, memory architecture, I/O architecture have been made in light of the broad vision for how computing, networking and, out of hand, how wireless enabled broadband networking including WiMAX will occur. This should be understood for what it represents as a shift in direction for Intel both in response to broad industry shifts and as a trend setting development.
    Reply
  • jtleon - Friday, April 04, 2008 - link

    Thanks to all the flash player ads, etc., a mobile web device will continuously avoid switching to low power states. Thus one could argue that advertising will be carbon footprint enemy of the internet's future. This is already becoming the case for desktop/laptop machines.

    Without such continuous (arguably wasted) consumption of CPU power, then Intel's engineered power management might have a significant impact on the value of the Atom.

    Regards,
    jtleon
    Reply
  • 0WaxMan0 - Friday, April 04, 2008 - link

    I am definatly much impressed and enthused by intels work here, the future looks interesting esp for those of us who like low power cross compatible computing products.

    However I have to point out that a low power modern x86 cpu has allready been done infact 4 years ago with AMD's Geode. While technically much weaker than the Atom and with out any where near the scalability (single core design etc.) the Geode has been available in the same TDP ranges for a good long while. Take a look here http://www.amdboard.com/geode.html">http://www.amdboard.com/geode.html for some old stuff.

    I do hope that the Intel name and hype makes more of an impact than AMD managed.
    Reply
  • whycode - Thursday, April 03, 2008 - link

    Does the TDP quoted include the chipset? Or is that CPU only? Reply
  • IntelUser2000 - Thursday, April 03, 2008 - link

    Anand, the Pentium M does not feature Macro Ops Fusion. Its Core 2 Duo that started Macro Ops Fusion. Reply
  • Anand Lal Shimpi - Thursday, April 03, 2008 - link

    You're correct, I was referencing micro-op fusion. I've made the appropriate correction :)

    Take care,
    Anand
    Reply
  • squito - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    Am I the only one shocked to see that Poulsbo is a 130nm part... Reply
  • AssBall - Thursday, April 03, 2008 - link

    I was a little surprised at first but when I got thinking... I don't really know if my P35 northbridge is even a 90nm chip.

    - Why would Intel not want to use its old rock solid 130 process that it spent a ton of money on to build simpler parts than it was designed for. As long as their materials and equipment are working fine for a cheap enough 130 part and there is no dire market for lower power chipsets that fit in an ATX standard...

    - Intel's most recent strategy has been to design and manufacture their latest designs on solid existing tech before they shrink it.

    I'm also fairly certain that if this little CPU takes off they will have the 90-65 version of it with some simple refinements out in two shakes of a lamb's tail. I'm really surprised myself that they set it up with ddr2 support... but again its so cheap now, why not?
    Reply
  • rmlarsen - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    It is articles like this that make me come back to Anandtech. Well written and researched and with the right level of detail. Keep up the good work!
    Reply
  • Woodchuck2000 - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    One of the best I've seen on Anandtech for quite a while. I've been following this one quite closely and it's great to have such a detailed exposition all in one place.

    Do we have any news on the availability of this as a desktop part? I've been looking to construct an always-on server sitting in a cupboard somewhere, just to act as a file/print server and to do a little light database/web hosting for testing and developement. A 1.6GHz Atom would easily provide enough horsepower to accomplish that and with a notebook HDD, the whole thing should stay well under 10W load power consumption!

    I saw a photo of Silverthorne + Poulsbo on an Intel reference board built to a Mini-ITX form factor but couldn't find any details on whether they were planning to release it to the general public...

    Also any news on when we might expect benchmarks?

    Keep up the good work!
    Reply
  • yyrkoon - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    You could probably do this now with the VIA pico ITX reference board.

    http://www.logicsupply.com/products/px10000g?refer...">http://www.logicsupply.com/products/px1...=&gc...

    Sorry for the long link . . . but I think power usage is somewhere around ~12W.
    Reply
  • AnnonymousCoward - Friday, April 04, 2008 - link

    Try tinyurl.com

    Thanks for such a high quality article, Anand!
    Reply
  • tfranzese - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    "These days, Intel manufacturers millions of Core 2 Duo processors each made up of 410 million transistors (over 130 times the transistor count of the original Pentium) in an area around 1/3 the size."

    ...is incorrect. You could nearly fit six Core 2 Duos at 45nm in the same area that the original Pentium occupied or even more impressive, four of them on the die of the original Pentium 4 with room to spare.
    Reply
  • tfranzese - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    I'm the one with fuzzy logic today and misinterpreted :) Reply
  • Magnus Dredd - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    It is completely true that there are benefits to having a single platform to support. However, the article is completely off the mark about where the benefits are most realized.

    It's not the HARDWARE.

    It's the API.

    It's all about the API. Unless you're writing drivers or an OS you're not writing to the hardware, with VERY few exceptions. The exceptions to this are for optimizations for seriously intense code like Photoshop filters and video game engines, where 90% or more of the code is to the API. So basically one way or another you're writing to an API. That's Application Programming Interface.

    Since it was mentioned in the article...

    If I'm writing a program that's supposed to run on OSX, the newest version supports TWO hardware platforms (PPC and x86, and not just x86 as the article claimed), and I want to create a "window" using the built in API (named Cocoa) I use the command NSWindow.
    http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Ref...">http://developer.apple.com/documentatio...SWindow_...
    It makes no difference when writing the program whether it's a PPC or Intel based machine that it will be running on with the single exception that in a few places you have to use a small bit of code to make sure that the program uses the byte order appropriate to the processor.

    While I have yet to read info on it, I'd bet that NSWindow is also used by the iPhone which uses a MIPS cpu (yet a third architecture).

    I've written code in ANSI C for Linux that runs without making any changes on PPC, x86(32 bit and 64 bit), and Sparc. If I wanted to go to the trouble I could also compile it on my MIPS based SGI, a Motorola 68000 series Mac, and a HP PA-RISC (if I can ever figure out how to get the damned thing running). That's because nearly all modern applications are compiled.
    ---
    Now if by PC, Anand meant Windows, we're talking a different story, but one with similar flaws.

    So I'm writing an application for Windows and I want to create a "window". I use the win32 command CreateWindow.
    http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms632679(...">http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms632679(...

    So lets just say that I want it to run on an Itanium under Windows... I use the win32 command CreateWindow.

    So let's just say that I want to make it run on a WindowsCE based set-top box or internet tablet powered by a MIPS CPU...
    I use the win32 command CreateWindow.
    http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms908192....">http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms908192....
    Quoting Wikipedia: "It is supported on Intel x86 and compatibles, MIPS, ARM, and Hitachi SuperH processors."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Windows_...">http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Windows_...
    ---
    I'm actually somewhat saddened to write this post, mostly due to the the amount of respect I have for Anand and many of the great articles he's written over the years. However, I suppose that it goes that way sometimes.

    I just want to make sure that people aren't misled about what makes it hard to port/move a program to another platform like a phone or a BlueRay player. And it's sure as hell not the CPU's instruction set. The CPU may not be fast enough or it's that programs are written for these APIs that may or may not support the hardware. And the fault for this lies with Microsoft, or Apple, or the GTK guys, or Trolltech, or whomever the API belongs to.

    Also simply dropping an x86 CPU into a machine does not mean that it can run Windows. With the sales of XP to cease, your only option for the new batch of supercheap x86 laptops like the ASUS EEE, or the cloudbook may be Linux, regardless of the fact that it's x86 based.

    The bottom line is, if Microsoft doesn't care about your platform, they won't support it and you won't be able to get it with Windows regardless of what the CPU is.

    While I do personally agree that x86 moving "downwards" is a great thing. I just see it taking over for completely different reasons, like Intel's manufacturing prowess.
    Reply
  • yyrkoon - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    Windows XP Embedded, and the compact .NET framework while you're talking about 'APIs', and platforms. XPe, and Win2003 Embedded are not going away any time soon, and basically have barely been available on a non beta basis. Although CE Builder could probably do the same thing, and as a matter of a fact I've seen some fairly nifty things done with it(eg: a boot-able image that fits on a floppy with all the functionality of your standard NAS, including User Groups and permission policies).

    While sometimes having an OS on an Embedded device may be a hindrance, there are times it can be quite handy. Bank KIOSKs, and Cash registers are only two such examples, and I have worked on/with both that use WinXPe.
    Reply
  • Anand Lal Shimpi - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    Agreed - the API also plays a large part, but for a company like Apple the pain of maintaining both PPC and x86 codepaths is significant. Perhaps the Firefox reference wasn't the best one, especially as I really see the strengths here for software companies like Apple (not to mention what other conventional hardware companies may start looking more like software companies as their devices get more complex).

    I think you've also hit on a major issue going forward: Microsoft is going to have to focus on these not-PCs a lot more seriously in the future. Instead of trying to scale Windows down, it needs a MCE-esque approach to these "fast enough" devices. Apple made the right first step with the iPhone OS, Microsoft can't stand by idle for too long without a good alternative. And MS does love x86... :)

    Take care,
    Anand
    Reply
  • highlandsun - Thursday, April 03, 2008 - link

    With all due respect to Fred Weber, with Atom at 47 million transistors, it's pretty obvious that the 10% figure for X86 ISA compatibility is not negligible, particularly in this performance-at-absolute-minimum-power space. Anybody using X86 in tiny embedded systems is automatically giving up a chunk of their power budget that someone using a cleaner instruction set encoding can apply directly to useful work. And as the previous poster already pointed out - source code portability is the only thing that matters to application developers, and that's a non-problem these days. Using the X86 instruction set encoding is stupid. Using it on a low-power-budget device is suicide. Reply
  • Jovec - Thursday, April 03, 2008 - link

    I don't think the 10% reference meant 10% of all chips, but rather 10% of the current chip at the time the statement was made. In other words, x86 instruction decoding requires (roughly) a fixed amount of transistors for any chip, so the smaller the die size and larger the transistor count, less and less space is devoted to it. Reply
  • highlandsun - Thursday, April 03, 2008 - link

    Yes, that's obvious. And it's also obvious that Atom at 47 million transistors is paying a greater proportionate cost than Core2 Duo at 410 million transistors. In 2002 when Fred made that statement, AMD's current chip was the AthlonXP Thoroughbred, with about 37 million transistors. At the same time the Pentium 4 had 55 million. Put in context, I'd guess that the Atom at 47M vs P4 at 55M has more than 10% of its resources devoted to X86 decoding.

    Also, Fred's statement in 2002 didn't take into account the additional complexity introduced by the AMD64 instruction extensions, where now a single instruction may be anywhere from 1 to 16 bytes long. Given that you're doing a completely clean ground-up chip design in the first place, it would have made more sense (from both a power budget and real estate perspective) to design a clean, orthogonal, uniform-length encoding at the same time.

    Cross-platform ABI compatibility is stupid in the context they're aiming for; nobody is going to run their PC version of Crysis or MSWord on their cellphone. All that matters is API compatibility. With a consistent API, you can still run a separate binary translator if you really really want to move a desktop app to your mobile device but in most cases it would be a bad idea because a desktop app is unlikely to take advantage of power-saving APIs that would be important on a mobile. I.e., most of the time you're going to want purpose-built mobile apps anyway.
    Reply
  • floxem - Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - link

    I agree. But it's Intel. What do you expect? Reply
  • maree - Thursday, April 03, 2008 - link

    I dont think MS will be ready before Windows 7 is released, which is another 3-5 years... and might coincide with Moorestown. Microsoft started work on WindowsLite only after releasing Vista. Vista is bloatware as of now. As of now MS has to rely on crippled versions of XP and Vista like starter and home, which is not very ideal.

    Apple and Linux are going to have a free run till then...
    Reply
  • TA152H - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    Bringing up the Pentium is a little strange, because the whole market is completely different.

    The Pentium wasn't supposed to be for everyone when it came out. The processor market was different back then where previous generations lasted a long, long time. The Pentium wasn't supposed to replace the 486 right away, or even quickly, and being huge and a terrible power hog was acceptable because the initial iteration was just for a very small group of people who absolutely needed it. The original Pentium had a lot of problems, and struggled badly to reach 66 MHz, so they sold most of their processors at 60 MHz. The second generation was intended more for mainstream.

    Nowadays the latest generation replaces the earlier much more quickly, and has to cover more market segments more quickly. I still remember IBM releasing new machines for the 8086 in 1987. That's 9 years after the chip was made. It's just a different market.

    The Pentium is nothing like the Silverthorne though, and it's a strange comparison. The Pentium executed x86 instructions, it wasn't decoupled. It also had both pipes, the U and V, lockstepped, which is limitation the Silverthorne doesn't have.

    Saying the Pentium Pro was the first processor that allowed out of order processing is strange indeed. The only other processor this would have made sense with was the Pentium, since it was the only previous processor that was superscalar. So, they only made one in order processor, and then went to out of order with the next. It's difficult to see the extrapolation from this that it will be five years or more before Silverthorne goes out of order. It might be that long, but the backwards reference shouldn't be used to back that; it does more to contradict it.
    Reply
  • Anand Lal Shimpi - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    The Pentium reference was merely to show that what was once a huge, 300mm^2 design could now be built on a much, much smaller scale. And starting from scratch it's now possible to build something in-order that's significantly faster.

    The Pentium was an obvious comparison given that it was Intel's last two-issue in-order design, but I didn't mean to imply anything beyond that.

    It won't be too long before we'll be able to have something the speed of a Core 2 in a similarly small/cool running package as well :)

    Take care,
    Anand
    Reply
  • fitten - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    I remember back in the days of the Mac FX we talked about 'what ifs' like making a 6502 with the (then) modern process technologies and how fast would it run. I wonder what about now :) Reply
  • crimson117 - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    quote:

    It won't be too long before we'll be able to have something the speed of a Core 2 in a similarly small/cool running package as well :)


    I am SO going to hold you to that! But I can only hope "won't be long" will mean within 12 months rather than within 12 years :P

    Especially after my fiasco mounting a Freezer 7 Pro on an Abit IP35-E, I'd love if a heatsink weren't even necessary.
    Reply
  • Anand Lal Shimpi - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    12 months won't be a reality unfortunately :) But look at it this way, the first Pentium M came out in 2003? And 5 years later we're able to have somewhat comparable performance with the Atom processor.

    I'm really curious to see what happens with Atom on 32nm...
    Reply
  • FlakeCannon - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    This was an absolutely fantastic article as far as I'm concerned. One of the best I've read from AnandTech. I'm truly impressed with the amount of effort and dedication that the engineers at Intel put into the Atom. Thought the consumer may not see its importance today the Atom will continue to develop one throughout the next 2 years and show why this is such a huge step in the right direction. I really think that this article outlines very well the architecture involved and where it intends to lead Intel and others in the future.

    I'm always impressed to see Intel take architecture that was revolutionary in its time 15 years ago in the Pentium and Pentium Pro and resurrect it in modern day fashion with help of the Dothan Pentium M architecture and even things borrowed from the miserable Netburst technology that 15 years later I believe will once again create a product revolutionary in nature. I was never able to appreciate it in the days of the Pentium but certainly can now.

    This is one product I think is deserving of being excited about.
    Reply
  • fitten - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    What does an on-die memory controller have to do with ILP? Reply
  • Anand Lal Shimpi - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    Woops, I've clarified the statement :)

    Take care,
    Anand
    Reply
  • erwos - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    I was thinking that this would be a fantastic platform for making a small, silent HTPC box for doing streaming media, but the lack of 1080p output kills that to a large extent. I know it's not a big priority for the first revision given the UMPC targeting, but I hope the "Atom 2" does try to squeeze that feature in. Reply
  • FITCamaro - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    It could always be paired with a different, more capable graphics core. Reply
  • ltcommanderdata - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    It;d be very interesting to see how the 1.86GHz Silverthorne stacks up against a 1.8GHz P4 Northwood, a 1.86GHz Dothan, a 1.8GHz Conroe-L based Celeron, and a 1.8GHz Athlon 64.

    I wonder if Apple is going to refresh AppleTV with Silverthorne since it seems ideal with replace the current 1GHz ULV Dothan in there.
    Reply
  • yyrkoon - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    Well at least Intel did not name their Atom CPUs the 'Atom Z80' . . . heh.

    Anyways, this is good for our future, as the mITX, and pITX 'systems' now days are still kind of large-ish, and cost quite a bit of money for what they are. Though, I think that putting a web browser on just any old appliance in the house would be way overkill, and possibly a very serious mistake. A TV with a web browser ? An Oven ? Please . . . this is why we have PCs, and micro mobile devices.

    Recently a friend and myself have been working on an embedded project, and I can see the potential here, but a 'problem' does exist. Some of the things you would want to do with such a processor . . . well lets just say there still would not be enough processing power. That being said, I do not see why these could not help make a TVs/HD-DVD player menu operate faster.


    Reply
  • pugster - Thursday, April 03, 2008 - link

    It certainly sounds nice, but the atom processor cost alot because some of the higher end models cost more than $100 each. I find it surprising that their Polosbo chipset is manufactured at 130mm. It probably came from one of their foundries that was due to upgrade to 32mm sometime next year anyways. They could've earily manufactured at 65mm.

    Somehow I don't see their product as mature and maybe the next gen product they would have a cpu and the north/south bridge in the same die.
    Reply
  • lopri - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    I honestly don't get the excitement. Should I? I mean, I wouldn't feel comfortable with one gigantic company controlling every single electronics in our life. If Intel opens up the X86 and everyone can compete on even end, then maybe. Since that won't happen, the future looks scary enough. Reply
  • clnee55 - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    NO, how can you get excitement. I am already bored with your conspiracy theory. Let's talk about tecnical issue here. Reply
  • lopri - Thursday, April 03, 2008 - link

    This article is as much propagana-ish as it is technical. Did you read the last page of the article? Reply
  • clnee55 - Friday, April 04, 2008 - link

    Since Anand wrote this article. I let him answer your accusation
    Reply
  • GulWestfale - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    i believe that the graphics core in the chipset is a powerVR gen5 derivative; intel already uses some of their tech in its existing mainboards and wikipedia states that intel has licensed gen5 tech for one of its chipsets, the GMA500 (which is the same as poulsbo?) gen5 is also DX10-capable, which matches the info in your article.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVR#Series_5_.28S...">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVR#Series_5_.28S...



    Reply
  • yyrkoon - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    and wikipedia has been known to be wrong . . . a lot lately it seems.

    My point here *is*, I would probably trust anandtech more than wikipedia now days, as it seems any Joe can put up a 'reference' without citation.
    Reply
  • jones377 - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    Following the references link from the Wiki article...

    http://www.imgtec.com/News/Release/index.asp?NewsI...">http://www.imgtec.com/News/Release/index.asp?NewsI...

    Poulsbo uses a PowerVR 3D core
    Reply
  • Anand Lal Shimpi - Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - link

    Yep, you guys are correct, I wasn't aware that it was public yet :) I've updated the article.

    Take care,
    Anand
    Reply

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