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  • Spacecomber - Sunday, May 29, 2005 - link

    LX, the only non-TN (ie, a 8-bit) panel that I am aware of that is suitable for gaming is the 20" IPS panel from LG Philips, which is found in the Dell 2001FP, for example. This is specified as a 16ms panel (as you noted, for whatever that is worth). It probably is not as blur-free as the fastest TN monitors, but I think many would consider this monitor "good-enough" for gaming. I would guess-timate that it is similar to a 12ms TN panel in this regard, since IPS panels do not show quite the same increase in response times when comparing black to white transitions to more subtle black to grey or grey to grey transitions as the TN panels do (and even more so VA panels, which really suffer in this area).

    This panel is used in LCDs from other manufacturers, as well. BenQ's FP2091, for example, which is not a big surprise sine BenQ appears to be the OEM behind the Dell 2001FP.

    You can pick out some other likely candidates from this list, http://www.tftpanel.hu/index.php?topic=monitortabl... . The site is non-english, but the tables are still quite readable.

    There may be other 8 bit panels that can keep up with the LG Philips LM201U04, but I'm not aware of them at this time. Well, except maybe for the wide screen version of this panel. See Anandtech's comparison of the Dell and Apple versions of these 20" widescreens to see what they thought of them.

    Space
    Reply
  • jiulemoigt - Sunday, May 29, 2005 - link

    "There were several instances while playing games where we could pick up small artifacts along the edges of the screen, and this anomaly seemed dependent on where the analog input cable was positioned on the desk. Analog interconnects need to disappear off the face of the earth, and fast."

    Why every once in while some thing is just plain wrong. Your problem is due to cheap cable or not screwing the cable ends on all tight, for artifacts to show up on your screen you have have to have some pretty heavy rads{em emmissions} off unshielded or badly shielded speakers, microwave overs, transitor radios, i'm trying to thick of anything else that you might consevibly have on your desktop that would cause artifacts, and thats all I could think of the top of my head. Most of the artifacts I have seen from doing both support and workstation graphics are from heat and bad feq on the signal, and not having a high enough refresh if you are used to working at higher rates.

    Analog interfaces vs digital ones usually have more to do with bandwidth limitations rather than signal interference. Your high end commercial lcds all have BNC interfaces as you will get a crisper sharper picture out of a BNC becuse your not forced into preset gradients between each color, your only limited by the device reciving and the cables. 15 pin serial < dvi-a/i < bnc {per channel}, so just putting a dvi connector on a dsp is not going to help if the dsp can not handle bandthwidth at it's end.
    a good example is SyncMaster™ 460PN (46" monitor)
    which you can game on but probably should not be since the run about 10 grand...
    I usually check anand for hardware you guys usually have your stuff together but with coments like analog being bad not simply old serial conectors that were around in commador days are limited for some reason... I don't know and I'm looking to replace my 900IFT with a lcd for home gaming but so far it was dell vs apple which are nice, but there should be more to it then that samsungs 24" not in I'm guessing it still considered expensive but still costs less than my video card? I'm biased as I work with nice colors every day but coming home to screen blurs and/or is not is nice as my crt i'm replacing, then it doesn't make sense to replace it :)
    Reply
  • LX - Saturday, May 28, 2005 - link

    The problem is that one cannot directly compare response time specs between different panels due to marketing misinformation.

    So my question is, are there any 8-bit monitors (PVA/MVA/IPS/S-IPS) with good response times in REAL-LIFE scenarios (not on paper)?
    Reply
  • xtknight - Saturday, May 28, 2005 - link

    Nice review.

    QUOTE: ...Using some color correction techniques in the OSD, we could usually compensate for the washed out effect, but we obviously would not want to do this for every game/level. A software interface for the OSD would go a long way here....

    Kristopher, have you tried the Samsung MagicTune software? Though this won't necessarily help you in games, it is a nice OSD front-end for Windows. The Samsung 915N you reviewed does have this. It's available off the monitor CD or Samsung's website. I love it... http://www.samsung.com/Products/Monitors/magictune...

    Also, the Samsung 930B would probably have been better to review, because it's identical (as far as I know) and has a DVI connection.
    Reply
  • sbbots - Friday, May 27, 2005 - link

    Being an avid gamer, I did a LOT of comparing before I picked up a Samsung 930B for $349 ($429 minus $80 rebate) at Best Buy. I have always used CRTs for gaming and LCDs for the kids/wife computer, but this one changed my mind forever.

    Gaming has never looked as good as it does on my new LCD - CS Source, Joint Operations, SWAT 4 and World of WarCraft all look fabulous with zero ghosting. I'm not sure what the reviewer is talking about when he says that the color isn't very good on the 915N (or 930B by proxy), but with a DVI cable, the color looks as good as any Dell or Sony I have ever owned.

    Anyway, I highly recommend this monitor to any gamer.
    Reply
  • TurtleBlue - Friday, May 27, 2005 - link

    Hmm...the Dell UltraSharp 1905FP is now selling for $455.05 at the Dell website today (05/27/05). Thats a pretty fat increase for something that should be "slightly cheaper" than the Samsung model being reviewed, after only 2 days since published?!?(which at NewEgg is selling for $342.99). That Samsung is going to look real "purdy" on my desk, replacing my old NEC 15" multisync LCD. Reply
  • Spacecomber - Friday, May 27, 2005 - link

    That's an interesting tip Nessism. I see that BenQ manufactures the 2001FP. Reply
  • Nessism - Friday, May 27, 2005 - link

    MrEMan,

    If you go to Dells site and dig up the "Regulatory" information you can read who makes the Dell monitor. For example, Liteon builds the 1905FP. I don't think Liteon builds them all though so you need to look up the specific monitor you are interested in. You need to be careful though because even though Liteon may assemble the monitor that does not mean it uses a Liteon screen inside.

    Hope this helps.

    Ed
    Reply
  • at80eighty - Thursday, May 26, 2005 - link

    Mucho thanx Jarred :-) Reply
  • JarredWalton - Thursday, May 26, 2005 - link

    31 - That roundup would have to be done by Kris. I've merely talked to him about some of the information I've given in the comments. As for the 6-bit being better than an 8-bit for gaming, it's not the colors that are better; it's the response time. While response times are often just fantasy marketing numbers, the fact is that the fastest 8-bit panels are still more prone to "motion blur" than the fastest 6-bit panels.

    32 - The main reason AnandTech hasn't reviewed a lot of the Tier 2 LCDs is that they don't commit to a single panel (just like the L90D+ I mentioned). If they find a cheaper panel, they can change at any time. In fact, numerous LCD manufacturers will have the same model name with three or more different panels used, depending on the date of manufacture. "Reviewing" such an LCD when we can't guarantee what panel will actually be used would be a major disservice to our readers. And the 4ms displays are likely just the 8ms panels with marketing using 1/2 the TrTf value. (See the second paragraph of the introduction.)
    Reply
  • LX - Thursday, May 26, 2005 - link

    Spacecomber (#20), the LTM190E4 is specd to be half as bright as the LTM240M1 (250 vs. 500 cd/m^2).

    I am not sure how it translate to real-life scenarions though.
    Reply
  • JNo - Thursday, May 26, 2005 - link

    I did comment this on the preceding LG display review but just to reiterate...

    "I know anandtech focuses a lot on the Dells and Samsungs in the LCD world, which is in many ways fair enough given their marketshares, but there are other LCDs coming out which I'd like to see reviews of. I know response time isn't everything and is often a controversial subject but I'd love to see priority reviews on the reported 6ms Gray To Gray (GTG) BenQ FP91V+ and the reported 4ms GTG Viewsonic VX924. Inquiring minds would love to know.."
    Reply
  • at80eighty - Thursday, May 26, 2005 - link

    Jarred, Kristopher ..ANYONE!!

    this has probably been asked before (my apologies in that case)

    Could we have a round up of the best 19"+ monitors for gaming?

    and here's the noob question of the day - how is a 6bit monitor better for gaming than a 8bit?


    Thnx in advance



    Reply
  • DoctorH - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    I was debating getting the 915N or the NEC 1970GX, also an 8ms LCD, but with the glossy black screen that makes movies look better.

    I decided to go for the glossy black screen. Plus I get a 700:1 contrast ratio, and DVI inputs, and USB hub.

    All this for $535 canadian.

    No dead pixels either.

    A friend of mine also picked one up.

    Best monitor I've laid eyes on. I did a direct comparison with the 915n, which was also, good, however, no DVI, and had that matte black finish.
    Reply
  • archcommus - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    #26, thanks. The 930B is definitely still my choice, then. I'm going to pick it up at Best Buy.

    I want to buy it now, but my upgraded computer won't be ready for a couple weeks still, and I don't want to buy the monitor and then just have it sit there - I want to use it actively from the moment I buy it in case any pixels or something dies. Hmm, what to do...
    Reply
  • shiznit - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    i apologize, didnt see the buyer's guide. but a review last year would have been nice. Reply
  • ocyl - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    Kristopher,

    Thank you for your sustained poundering on 6-bit panels. It really is much appreciated.

    Best regards.
    Reply
  • MajorPayne - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    #24, the main differences between the 2 are 1) DVI connection (Essential for most folks), and 2) Software DPS control (useful to some, but I have never minded setting it manually, so not that useful to me). The other specs are the same.... 8ms response time, still no swivel (at least it does tilt), and a beautiful screen. I was playing farcy64 last night on mine (I just got it 2 days ago), and could not believe how beautiful everything looked. I kept getting killed because I stopped to stare at stuff ;)! Reply
  • Rocket321 - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    So what is the actual response time for the Dell 1905? This review indicates that it is a 25ms panel - several times. Yet in the full review from January it is listed as a 20ms panel. Which review has it right? Reply
  • archcommus - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    I wanted to get a 930B pretty soon, is it different in any ways besides having DVI? Should I still get that one? Reply
  • Rocket321 - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    Reply
  • Spacecomber - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    Neogodless, I think they do qualify their objective analysis by saying that their equipment doesn't do a very good job of measuring the blackest blacks. This means that the black measurements are somewhat misleading; they appear to be more similar than actually is the case. In actual use, the difference is apparent. The monitors that have PVA panels (Samsung 193P and Dell 1905FP)and even a IPS panel (Dell 2005FP) reproduce something much closer to true black compared to what the TN panels are capable of, regardless of what the "spyder" says.

    Space
    Reply
  • neogodless - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    "The Samsung is the brighter monitor, but it cannot produce a dark enough of an image that many of our other displays can."

    The only display with a lower black image reading was another Samsung (at 2.2). Please explain!
    Reply
  • Spacecomber - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    LX, Samsung has a 19" panel, LTM190E4, http://www.samsung.com/Products/TFTLCD/Monitors_n_... , which appears to have the same specification as the LTM240M1 that you mentioned (except this this 19" panel does not use a wide screen format).

    I believe that this LTM190E4 panel is what is being used in the Samsung 193P Plus or 193P+, http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2... . But, I don't think this monitor is widely available (yet?).

    I'm eager to hear, myself, whether any PVA panel, even with a 8ms response time, really is suitable for dynamic images, such as in gaming. The problem with PVA panels to date has not been that their white to black response times (which is usually the specification given) are that high, rather it is that this measurement doesn't convey how poorly PVA panels do with more subtle black to grey or grey to grey transitions. Unfortunately, a relatively low black to white response time doesn't necessarily mean you can expect a similar improvement in the black to grey and grey to grey response times.

    So, I remain interested in learning more about these 8ms PVA panels, but I'm also skeptical of them, until I see a thorough review done.

    (The Eizo L778 is another 19" PVA based LCD that sounds like it might be a relatively low response time monitor, at least based on the specifications. I'm not aware of any thorough reviews of it, either.)

    Space
    Reply
  • MrEMan - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    I posted this in the previous LG review, but I don't recall seeing an answer: does anyone know who builds Dell's LCD monitors, and how do their retail versions compare to the OEM version produced for Dell? Reply
  • LX - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    The Samsung LTM240M1 panel used in the Dell 2405FPW has excellent specs:
    http://www.samsung.com/Products/TFTLCD/Monitors_n_...

    Unfortunately, 24" wide screen (1,920 x 1,200) is not the best choice for crowded workplaces, mid-range graphics cards and/or tighter budgets.

    Are there LCD monitors that use panels with comparable specs but smaller sizes?
    Reply
  • MajorPayne - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    This was a great review... I own the 930B (the newer version of this screen with the DVI input. Also, no one has noted this about the 930B yet, but one other thing the article had on it's wish list (software to control the DSP settings) is included with the 930B. The 930B is an awesome display, and since I got it for only $320.00 (and there were 2 mail in rebates for $80.00 on top of that) at my local Fry's, I could not help but buy it. I love the damn thing! Also, this is the first LCD I have ever had (I have owned 6 of them before this one) that does not have even 1 single dead pixel. Great job on a great screen Samsung!! Reply
  • WT - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    19" LCD reviews = HAWT !!! (as Paris would say)

    Keep them coming .. these things have become the new Ipod and every semi-hardcore PC user I know is contemplating an LCD purchase. I'm buying one myself in 3 weeks (leaning towards the Fuji FP-988D).
    Reply
  • Spacecomber - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    yacoub, what you are looking for is a LCD that uses a IPS panel (In-Plane Switching). All the TN panels (Twisted Neumatic) are only capable of 6 bit color, and all the PVA (Patterned Vertical Alignment) monitors will have too slow a response time, especially once you get away from only talking about black to white transitions.

    Unfortunately, the IPS panels are pretty much only found in 20" displays (and larger), such as the Dell's that RaidenSix mentioned.

    Perhaps as consumers become better educated about the limitations of "low response time" TN panels, there will be a growing demand for better quality monitors, such as those built around an IPS panels, in a greater range of sizes.

    Space
    Reply
  • RaidenSix - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    yacoub, you can look at the Dell monitors (2001FP, 2004FPW). You can get them at a good price with their coupons. Reply
  • yacoub - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    Okay so I'm looking for a 17"-19" viewable 8-bit 8ms LCD panel. Who makes them?

    (Getting tired of seeing reviews for 6bit panels.)
    Reply
  • yacoub - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    Reply
  • PrinceXizor - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    I'm having trouble understanding your contrast ratio chart?

    I assume higher white numbers are better and lower black numbers are better.

    This panel has the second lowest black number (2.6) in you chart, yet, you don't like it and pronounce it "not dark enough".

    I'm confused?

    P-X
    Reply
  • Spacecomber - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    Keep the LCD reviews coming, since this is an area of computer products that is only going to continue to grow for the forseeable future. Hopefully, as reviewers get more familiar with these monitors they will be able to tease them apart the way they do when they discuss a motherboard or a graphics card, discussing the components that make up the product and how these have an impact on performance. Just as knowing whose chipset and what audio solution is being used on a motherboard tells you a lot about what to expect from a motherboard, knowing more about the panel and the circuitry being used with an LCD will eventually be a big tip-off as to what to expect from a LCD. Anandtech is already moving along this route by taking the time to disassemble and confirm what is being used in the constrution of the LCDs they review.

    As noted, the real competition for this monitor might be from the Hyundai L90D+, at least as long as it is using the same (presumably) panel as the 915N, since it does come with DVI. The other competitor that may make the 915N obsolete is the recently released Samsung 930B (as also noted above). Actually, a side by side comparison of the L90D+ and the 930B might be interesting, since it would allow us to see if we need to look a bit beyond just what panel is being used in a monitor and ask whether the supporting circuitry also makes a significant difference in final quality of a LCD's image.

    (As mentioned previously, one of the disappointments for me in the Dell 19005FP, compared to the Samsung models, was the lack of ability to make adjustments to the monitor's image with the OSD controls. This really hurt the Dell 1905FP in my eyes, despite it using the same panel as the Samsung 193P.)

    Finally, it might be worthwhile to look a bit more at the viewing angles when reviewing LCDs, especially when discussing TN panels, since my understanding is that this has always been a weak point for TN monitors.

    You can see this in the specifications that Samsung lists for the panel used in this monitor (the link is given in this article in the first line of the page titled, Panel). On that page Samsung list the monitor's viewing angles as 75/60/75/75 (U/D/L/R), which seem more realistic than those given for the monitor, itself. Notice in particular how the when viewing the panel from below the viewing angle is less than from any other angle, this is characteristic of TN panels.

    It seems to me that the narrow angles of a TN panel coupled with a stand that has very little ability to pivot (as with the 915N) could become a problem in actual use.

    Space
    Reply
  • arswihart - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    shiznit - he just recommended it in the latest buyer's guide and he just reminded you that he did Reply
  • shiznit - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    if you want this exact same display but with DVI and pivot, get yourself a Hyundai L90D+, which has been out for some time and somehow anand never noticed. Reply
  • Zebo - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    " However, as TN displays appear to be the only ones that can really offer substantially better response times than SIPS displays made by LG.Philips LCD"


    I've read every article at anandtech for four years and don't know what you're talking about... How about spelling out acronyms like TN and SIPS to make articles more inviting.:-)
    Reply
  • Murst - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    I've been using my 193P for 10 months now. Still no reason to change, and the fact that I got it so long ago and still nothin' better (both looks and quality) has come out during that time proves to me it was a great purchase =)

    I really wish manufacturers would keep on designing stuff which looks like the 193P though. It probably doesn't cost that much more, and it makes a huge difference on the desk. This 915N looks like crap.
    Reply
  • JarredWalton - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    4 - Which is why I recommended the Hyundai in the recent Buyer's Guide. The problem is that Hyundai could switch panels at any time, which could suddenly make the L90D+ a poor choice. Anyway, 6-bit color isn't great, but for gaming the panels are really nice. Reply
  • IceWindius - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    This is the same TN panel they use in the Hyundai L90D+ which I own and it totally freaking rocks! Reply
  • Denial - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    This will be a nice replacement for the 193s I'm staring at. Reply
  • RaidenSix - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    There's already a DVI version of this monitor - 930B. Reply
  • Chapbass - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - link

    first post! har har...

    typo on this line in the conclusion:
    comparison to all of the displays htat we have reviewed in the past

    in all, pretty cool review...yet another lcd option to replace my old scratched 21" crt...
    Reply

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