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  • vladx - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    And finally here we are, the day AMD is turning into a patent troll. Reply
  • ddriver - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    Curious whether it is a sign of confidence or desperation. They plan on paying for it with zen money I guess. They've been in a desperate financial situation for a while, thus the timing dictates they are doing it now because now they can afford to. Reply
  • close - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    vladx is a patented troll. He doesn't need arguments or details, he just knows. How about we wait to see the merits of the patents in court since we have no details yet?

    A patent troll is an entity that buys rights to patents for no purpose other than litigation and they bully others into paying up through the threat of litigation.

    AMD is not and has probably never been in a position to bully anyone into anything. Also ATI was there to write the book on GPUs. They were never in the business of patenting the rectangle with rounded corners or anything like that. So chances are they feel confident justice is on this one but only now could they afford to do anything about it.
    Reply
  • Michael Bay - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    Except nV actually wrote it instead. Reply
  • close - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    No, actually it was written together by 3dfx, ATI, Nvidia, PowerVR, Matrox, and others. Nvidia was never alone on the market.

    The point was ATI (now AMD) has been doing actual research, obtaining real patents, and applying them to real products for more than 3 decades now. Quite unlike any patent trolls who usually deal with exceptionally vague or obvious patents. Nice try though :).
    Reply
  • Alexvrb - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    Nvidia coined the catchy phrase GPU, yep. Just like AMD coined APU. Catchy!

    Anyway, these lawsuits certainly don't fall under the category of patent trolling, and Samsung wouldn't have licensed these patents if they didn't think AMD had a legitimate claim.
    Reply
  • Gich - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    It doesn't sound like a troll patent if Samsung agreed to pay... Reply
  • rpmrg - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    You're a worse troll than AMD. Reply
  • Oxford Guy - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    Some of the comments are cute. Corporations exist to vacuum up money. That's what they do. Reply
  • tamalero - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    I dont think you even understand what "Patent troll" even means. Reply
  • prisonerX - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    No, you're the patent troll. Reply
  • fanofanand - Monday, February 06, 2017 - link

    You clearly have no clue what a patent troll is. A patent troll by the very definition does not produce products, just sues other companies who make products which infringe on their IP. The whole point of a patent troll is a lack of products or even production facilities. AMD certainly does not fit in that bucket. You on the other hand, are a troll of many varieties. Reply
  • wyewye - Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - link

    I came here to see someone call AMD a patent troll. I was not dissapointed. Reply
  • Communism - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    Looks like AMD knows what's up.

    Nvidia directly went after the nation-state of Samsung, foolishly thinking that rule of law is anything other than a fantasy.

    AMD is bribing Samsung to destroy LG for them, as well as getting the Chinese Communist Party to destroy Taiwan's Mediatek for them.

    Realpolitik at work.
    Reply
  • ddriver - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    You don't have to bribe china to destroy anything-taiwan. China in investing 50+ billions in the one field where US&puppets are unrivaled - semiconductors. China is expected to become a major player in just a few years, catching up on the existing big boys with decades of experience. Taiwan is a defacto rogue state that is legally part of China, and still claim to be China's rightful regime. Undermining Taiwan's business is a top priority for China, and even without Taiwan in the picture, it is still a national security priority for them. Plus AMD doesn't have anything to bribe China with.

    Couple of weeks back I was reading on China's upcoming NAND giga-foundry, and how it be "disruptive" to the NAND bussiness, which is currently seeing shortages and as a result - inflated prices.

    So I was thinking "how can more production and competition be disruptive?" but more of a rhetorical question. Naturally, the NAND shortage is entirely artificial, so that they can make more money on sand, yet another implicit mutual agreement between the industry. So yeah, if China starts churning out cheap NAND tomorrow, that will definitely be disruptive to the dirty schemes of the industry. I say GO CHINA!!! The world needs a break from the US dominated and heavily politicized monopoly on semiconductors.
    Reply
  • Communism - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    Direct access to roughly comparable to the US Trade Embargoed/banned Intel x86 CPUs sounds like quite a bribe to me. Reply
  • Communism - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    Especially since the Chinese Government is currently reduced to trying to cobble together Supercomputers from shitty ARM/MIPS processors (At least until OpenPower pans out).

    Also the convenience of AMD's Zen being essentially drop in replacements to the gaping void that the Intel x86 CPU US Trade Embargo leaves.
    Reply
  • ddriver - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    AMD is an american company, the government will not allow them to give technology to China. End of story.

    China's latest supercomputer, based on its own chip design, is not only the world's fastest, but it is also tremendously efficient already, despite being based on an old process node. This thing will completely and utterly destroy intel's best once manufactured on a quality process. And the design has room for improvement too.

    It is rather narrow-minded to underestimate the Chinese, just because they've been useful as cheap labor the last few decades. Those are not backward savages, they are very intelligent and dedicated people, they certainly don't have to rely on handouts, besides things have come a long way, it is very easy to catch up to the standard and not too hard to surpass it, when it comes to the stagnant field of chip design. Tools are ample, anyone can put together a chip, simulate its performance, optimize and bring the mask stencils to the foundry.
    Reply
  • Communism - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    You better tell that to Abu Dhabi :P

    The only thing keeping AMD/Global Foundries afloat for all these years is Abu Dhabi.

    And you better tell that to the OpenPower initiative, which exists for no other purpose than to shift funding of development of Power from IBM (which is switching to / has switched from a "real business" over the years to a financial engineered inflatable fake company) to the Chinese Communist Party.

    Zen's success is also hinging on the ability of AMD to be able to export Zens to be used in Chinese government supercomputers as well as the semi-custom CPUs AMD is designing with Zen for Chinese infrastructure (To compliment the POWER ones).
    Reply
  • ddriver - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    You are immensely misinformed about a whole lot of stuff. Reply
  • Communism - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    Looks like you admit defeat after trying to put words into my mouth in every single one of your response posts (and failing) :D Reply
  • ddriver - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    If by "defeating you" is implied "bringing you to reason" - that goal is apparently unattainable. As a reasonable human being, I no longer dedicate efforts after an endeavor has been found to be pointless ;) Reply
  • Communism - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    Whatever helps your sleep at night :D

    Victory is obviously mine :D
    Reply
  • close - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    You two should write a book :). Also pass the blunt. Don't hate, I'm just saying. Reply
  • Mat3 - Tuesday, February 07, 2017 - link

    "The only thing keeping AMD/Global Foundries afloat for all these years is Abu Dhabi" - maybe applies to Global Foundries, but they don't give a dime to AMD. Reply
  • Oxford Guy - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    If they're so smart why is their country polluted so horrifically. Soil that polluted doesn't just magically clean itself up. It's polluted for even a hundred years or more. The US has some of the worst brown rice arsenic levels in the world because of pesticides that were dumped into the soil in 1910. Reply
  • ddriver - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    They allowed polluting industries to be outsourced because the needed the money. Pretty soon they will be outsourcing their polluted industries to less fortunate places. Pollution is a very big issue, but don't underestimate what a billion people with shovels can do. Air pollution will be solved in the fairly short term, and most of the fuss is about air pollution, when soil and groundwater are the real issues here. Reply
  • Michael Bay - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    And India can`t supply good water to all of it`s citizens, but it didn`t stop them from utterly conquering american IT at the exec level. Question of priorities. Reply
  • tamalero - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    Why you worry, after the destruction of the EPA by Trump loyalists (for America(tm) ). Will probably leave the same damage as in China. Reply
  • Michael Bay - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    Oy vey goyim, muh rentseeking (((networking))) landed "job" is in jeopardy!
    Le ebil global warming, sorry, (((climat change))) will kill us all becuase Trump is a nazi!
    MUH SIX GORILLION!
    Reply
  • tamalero - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    "they certainly don't have to rely on handouts"
    they do not need handouts because they are fiercely protected by the Chinese government.
    How many times they have stolen patents after a company decided to use Chinese companies to produce.. only to see your own workers build a new factory to build products based on your designs without paying anything and their government siding with them. essentially fucking your entire company.
    Reply
  • cocochanel - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    You have quite a rosy picture about China. Taiwan likes to be on its own because they got used to freedom and don't like to be ruled by Commies. Look at what is happening in Hong Kong.
    As for how great the Chinese economy is, most of their companies are state-owned and run by bureaucrats more interested in lining up their own pockets. Inefficiency is rampant. One third of those companies operates at a loss. A policy of full employment results in dumping massive amounts of goods on the world markets at below cost. The construction industry is no better. There are entire cities built in the middle of nowhere and in which nobody lives. Record amounts of pollution. Workers treated like slaves. Theft of IP on a massive scale. Forced technology transfers. And a government who can't seem to understand that if you want a US style economy you need US style institutions.
    They even have a fancy school in Beijing teaching college graduates that Western democracies are obsolete. How crazy is that ?
    Reply
  • Michael Bay - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    Looking at what western "democracies" have turned into, it`s hard to disagree. Reply
  • cocochanel - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    Western democracies may be flawed, but if you think the Chinese system is better, you're definitely living in La-La Land. Reply
  • Alexvrb - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    Yes and once the Chinese ramp up NAND production and use cutthroat pricing to kill off much of their competition, they'll certainly keep quality higher and prices lower than ever. Out of the goodness of their hearts. Clearly, nothing could possibly go wrong. Reply
  • Penti - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    Why? Nvidia's suit went nowhere, it didn't use any real IP but all the IP they used where essentially invalidated and made useless. AMD obviously has a deal in place with Qualcomm (and it's mentioned in the suit) as the Adreno tech comes from AMD, but this would essentially leave only Qualcomm as the only mobile SoC vendor, and they have only really targeted Mali-graphics and left out Vivante and PowerVR/ImgTec. Also with fabs having licenses, will they only target chips with Mali if they are fabbed outside of Samsung or GlobalFoundries? What about Apple with PowerVR from TSMC? Vivante or Imagination isn't mentioned at all. Reply
  • testbug00 - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    So far AMD has only identified MediaTek products as not being covered.
    It could be expanded.

    Given AMD has licensees already, it has way more water than in Nvidia's case. At least from a perspective of how "valid" companies believe the patents are.
    Reply
  • Penti - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    Plus Sigma, which is why Vizio is mentioned (is a respondent) in the complaint.

    I haven't read any of the licensing deals, but I'm sure the Nvidia patents where included in some cross licensing deals too and that these have never been asserted before either.
    Reply
  • testbug00 - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    Nvidia had Intel.... Who made a "payment" for 5 years "license". But that payment was also in part due to other things. I expect that if an agreement is renegotiated than it will have a net cost of zero between companies.

    Here, AMD clearly has multiple companies (large) which are licensing. And by the sounds of it not cross-licensing.

    Let me put it this way, Nvidia never had any company explicitly licensing the patents i tried to get Samsung and others to. If Remember, full CPU + GPU + uncore from ARM is at most 5% cost adder.

    NOW, AMD still could be doing something similar. Except with GloFo and Samsung signing off, for whatever reason. However, I don't expect AMD is going to ask for much more than ARM would. But, even 1% across the hundreds of thousands, if not tens of millions, of units this could cover for Mediatek alone adds up.

    with these patents. At first glance, it doesn't seem so to me.

    Thanks on the Sigma part, misread or misunderstood them as a device maker, not SoC maker. Thanks!
    Reply
  • testbug00 - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    I meant to put Nvidia asked for price that is as not good faith compared to ARM <5% if all is ARM IP.

    NvI is tried instead to get prices like Intel pays due to Nvidia lossing chipsets, but from companies with much lower margins and much less unit sales.
    Reply
  • Penti - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    We don't really know what kind of licensing agreements that these patents where included in. Obviously nobody licensed the patents specifically here either.

    Would the GlobalFoundries and Samsung deals also cover MediaTek chips fabbed in their facilities? If not why is GlobalFoundries even an license? If they are covered couldn't they just outbid Qualcomm, Apple etc for capacity forcing them to go to TSMC and others?
    Reply
  • testbug00 - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    Nvidia patents weren't good faith given the volume and ASP of mobile chips.

    They may cover those mediatek chips, check whom manufactured them perhaps?. I don't understand your other question.
    Reply
  • Penti - Monday, February 06, 2017 - link

    If GlobalFoundries and Samsungs deals cover other parties than AMD or Samsung using the fabs, then MedieTek, Sigma and potentially others could decide to design for and fab at GlobalFoundries and/or Samsung to bypass any claims or bans. Qualcomm which is licensed (for essentially any GPU IP) since they bought the z430/460 design and AMD's mobile-GPU team back in 08/09 would be free to use TSMC or whoever, but today manufactures some of their chips at GlobalFoundries. MediaTek chips is mostly fabbed at TSMC. They would obviously have to compete for capacity at Samsung or GlobalFoundries if that is the only way for their products not to be banned by ITC. Reply
  • Penti - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    Also MediaTek has several products with PowerVR graphics too. Reply
  • lefty2 - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    > What about Apple with PowerVR from TSMC?
    One of the reasons that there's an AMD GPU in the new Macbook and not a Nvidia, is that Nvidia tried to shake down Apple for IP infringment: http://semiaccurate.com/2014/09/04/nvidia-sues-sam...
    Sueing one of your best customers is always a bad idea.
    Reply
  • testbug00 - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    AMD also has way better OpenCL drivers. And is more willing to give a lower price.

    But Nvidia's actions certainly have not helped.
    Reply
  • Penti - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    Apple where not a defendant there though, and is not mentioned in any way as an license (nor Imagination Technologies or TSMC) in the complaint. Reply
  • deltaFx2 - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    Definition of patent troll "a company that obtains the rights to one or more patents in order to profit by means of licensing or litigation, rather than by producing its own goods or services". In what sense does AMD fit that definition? Why do companies pay millions to get patents if they aren't respected/enforced?

    University of Wisconsin suing Intel and Apple for patent money is patent trolling. This? Hardly.
    Reply
  • deltaFx2 - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    The above was in response to vladx. Reply
  • Oxford Guy - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    That's the strict definition. The looser one is any entity that abuses the patent system. Reply
  • vladx - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    ^Exactly. Reply
  • deltaFx2 - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    Ok, so what in your mind constitutes abuse of the patent system? Clearly suing for infringement can't be it; that would defeat the entire purpose of the system. Have you seen the claim, and are basing this on your study of its merits or lack thereof? Reply
  • tamalero - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    A patent troll usually does not produce anything themselves(product wise). They rely exclusively on lawsuits to force either huge payouts or selling overpriced "licenses". Reply
  • Shadowmaster625 - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    If anything, these companies should be sued for stealing bulldozer's horrible single thread performance. Reply
  • yannigr2 - Saturday, February 04, 2017 - link

    At least AMD hasn't declare itself the inventor of GPUs and doesn't talk about millions of hours that where spend from it's engineers. Reply
  • Michael Bay - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    >millions of hours that where spend from it's engineers

    Now I know what happens in the head of people still byuing AMD!
    Reply
  • webdoctors - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    This case should be interesting for several reasons, since the previous case with Nvidia never resolved the question as to who is responsible, ARM (IP seller) or the SoC vendor (Mediatek).

    Second reason is AMD doesn't have any products to get counter-sued over, they don't make tablets, systems or anything outside of a very specific component (CPU/GPU). Sure they could get counter-sued for XBOX or PS4, or at least their partners could, but just like in Bioshock it would be foolish to take on the big daddy, it wouldn't make sense for LG or Mediatek to countersue Microsoft which has a gajillion patents.

    This whole system is messed up.
    Reply
  • Ej24 - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    I wonder if they're going after the producers of consumer product rather than ARM because they know they can't win against ARM. Vizio is much more likely to capitulate to AMD and then file suit against ARM for willingly selling them chips known to be in infringement. Vizio could probably cover all the damages paid to AMD and then some. Meanwhile AMD's gamble would have paid off. Reply
  • testbug00 - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    I believe it has to do with law going something like where anyone can _design_ a product, but until it is actually made It isn't infringing the patent.

    ARM to my knowledge makes nothing itself. So they cannot be sued.
    Reply
  • Vlad_Da_Great - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    NVDA tried vs SAMS and QCom and failed. Samsung said that those were old tech, which NVDA tried to pursue. AMD is doing that for the marketing purposes, so can extract a little more value from the stock, before they dump it all to the retail. Especially the crooks of Meryl Lynch, Goldman, Citi, and few more who got almost 80M shares for free, in the debt for stock swap few months ago. Reply
  • Communism - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    AMD has always been a pump and dump stock, nothing new about that.

    It's the reason they spend such inordinate amounts of effort on "viral marketing" and pump such bullshit lies out constantly churning perceptions.
    Reply
  • testbug00 - Sunday, February 05, 2017 - link

    Nvidia also had multiple patents invalided and 0 licensees. AMD had two, for these specifically, and others for licensing as well.

    And, for free? They gave up the debt? Also given Zen meets expectations, AMD stock may indeed be valuable. And or it may indeed end up just being another insane failure.
    Reply
  • fanofanand - Monday, February 06, 2017 - link

    Good for AMD! It's about time they stopped being the technological world's whipping boy! Reply

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