So Rock Band 2 was released yesterday. Anand picked it up and I'll certainly be playing it as some point in the near future. But the release sparked a debate between my wife and I about age appropriate gaming.

Sure, it might not be a good idea to expose children to lots of murder, rape and explicit language. Not that all that stuff shouldn't be allowed in artwork and entertainment, but young children don't have the ability to understand the context of the work. As adults we have the capacity to differentiate between our own lives and the type of activities we see on TV, hear in our music, or interact with in our games.

As parents we have the responsibility to make sure our children understand reality and are able to function within the context of our current society. While children are still building the foundation of their understanding of the world, concepts ideas and images have a much higher impact on them than on adults. Beyond this, very young children tend just to repeat and imitate a lot and that can cause problems on its own.

For instance, I don't particularly have a problem with language. Any word we use has a meaning and can be effective in conveying an idea. "Bad" "dirty" and all that I believe to be misnomers. Sometimes people feel ways about stuff and need to relate that to others. Sometimes the f-bomb is the best tool to do this. But, for societal reasons, many people are offended by the use of certain words. It is thus inconsiderate for me to go around using words that other people may not be comfortable with hearing. And while I don't care if my child wishes to use any word she wants, there is the problem of her not understanding appropriateness at the ripe old age of 2.

So, while teaching someone the appropriate use of language and disallowing them the knowledge of something both result in the same outward appearance, age appropriateness of the proper parenting technique is necessary. For now, we try not to allow our daughter to learn words that she might inappropriately use to the detriment of others. This is in the same way we would not give her a knife until she comes to the point in her life where she is able to learn that stabbing herself and others with a sharp object is not a good idea without having to try it out first. It is not that knives are bad, it's just that until a certain age children are not equipped to lean how to use them well.

Yeah yeah, learning about killing and rape and cursing is bad (especially for really young ones). But there is a further issue at hand. While my wife and I (generally) agree on all the above, we diverge when it comes to some Wii games and Rock Band / Guitar Hero in particular.

Will exposing young children to games that closely imitate reality while dumbing it down and providing immediate gratification and simulated praise make children less interested in or apt to learn specialized skills like playing baseball, tennis or musical instruments? Should the interface to a video game also have an age appropriateness attached to it?

I say no. Laura says yes. Here's our point / counterpoint with me up first.

Derek's Thoughts:

I think playing games is playing games. Sure, my daughter might see me jamming out with a 5 buttoned guitar like object with a glorified light switch to "strum." She'll also see me racing a cartoon go-kart with a disembodied wheel while yelling at my wife. That's not going to make her not want to learn to drive. Doing the thing in real life has a function, and that function will have a value of its own outside the video game.

I can swing my Wii-mote at a screen and hit baseballs, but until we get holodecks (opening up a whole other debate), reality will always offer a different experience than video games. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, but they don't replace each other. There is room for both.

Adding to our specific situation, our daughter already loves guitars. She sees us play them and hears them on the radio and gets really excited. She loves plucking the strings and hearing the sound. But, of course, if she wants to play music she'll have a lot to learn. Lots of time and frustration will be part of the experience. While many have argued that Rock Band or Guitar Hero could inspire some children to want to learn an instrument, that doesn't apply here.

So could introducing Rock Band as a concept to our daughter fulfill her love of guitars enough to the point where she doesn't want to learn? Would she be so gratified by the cheering of fake crowds and the ease of pressing buttons while hearing a song spew forth that she would never want to pick up a real guitar?

I don't think so.

In fact, I believe that learning the basic ideas behind playing guitar that you can't take away from this type of game will go a long way to helping her learn guitar for real. The movement of your fingers between the buttons does help get your hands used to the types of movements you need to make when fingering a real guitar. Strumming, even though the strum bar is nothing like real strings, will absolutely teach you rhythm and timing.

My sister always wanted to play guitar. She took lessons for a long while but had a real hard time with strumming. She couldn't get it down until someone came along and was able to really teach her what it feels like to play songs the way they need to be played. I think music games can do that for people in ways that teachers often are not able.

I also don't think the cheering crowds have much to do with it. In the end there is a satisfaction we get from playing a game, and that is doing well at the game. Pleasing some digital fan isn't satisfying in the same way that pleasing a person is, but if pleasing a digital fan is part of the game then doing so still has its use.

Honestly, if we locked our daughter in a room and all she had to satisfy her was video games then I think we would have a problem. But I don't think that there is any age in which we need to worry about her replacing real experiences with video game experiences as long as we expose her to the spectrum of possibilities in the world. She will pick doing the things that she likes doing based on the things we expose her to. As long as she has access to varied experiences, she'll end up being the person she is supposed to be. If that's a rocker playing guitar, that's fine. If she ends up being a professional video game player, I think that's fine too. And I don't think they'll ever be mutually exclusive activities.

Laura's Thoughts:

Imagine a sink full of dishes. Splatters of yesterday's spaghetti have crystallized on half of the bowls, someone thought it might be a good idea to leave the peelings from lunch's cucumber experience all over the place, and an unidentifiable smell is emanating from what can only be described as the bowels of the drainpipe. And it's your turn to clean up after the meal. The usual method involves scalding hot water, copious amounts of dish soap, sore arms and a noisy dishwasher. But let's do it differently today. You pick up the first dish and run it under the water, all of the hardened food suddenly vanishing as if the faucet spews forth a magic crud-busting liquid. You place the dish into the washer and a massive crowd of young, busty teenagers screams your name. They want more. With each dish the voices swell, blinking lights indicate that you are washing a perfect load. You come to the end, shut the door, turn on the dishwasher… and a rainbow shoots out with the surge of the cheering crowd.

I don't care who you are, you will never want to wash dishes the old way again. But the joy of some tasks just isn't part of the doing. It's part of the result. And while learning how to play an instrument is not exactly like dishwashing, there are times when it will feel about as fun. When you're done, however, there's nothing quite as rewarding as having gotten that solo bridge guitar part perfectly, note for note… or the smell of lemony cleanness and a spotless kitchen.

I'm not afraid my daughter wouldn't want to pick up a guitar once she sees how fun it is to play Rock Band 2. But I would be amazed if she persevered with the real thing in the same way after experiencing the misleading rewards of the video game. I can honestly say that if you offered me an afternoon of golf or a Mario Golf disc, I'd choose the one that requires less walking. If I was told to either go join the army or play a round of Counterstrike, I wouldn't slap on a helmet. And if running the country felt at all like playing Generals or Civilization, a lot more people would be interested in the job. (Don't freak out, I know I probably crossed a few of the general publics' comfort boundaries with those last two sentences).

Not all game examples are like this, but it seems to ring true with a concept as tangible as learning an instrument. There's also so much good in learning to appreciate the joy of a task before watering it down. If my daughter wants to practice guitar and starts to really find a passion for it, there's no reason to continue to censor her video game guitar experiences.

As far as other aspects of Rock Band go, I'm not sure she should be subjected to some of the lyrics involved, either. Even if the game cuts out curse words (which I'm actually not a fan of, modifying art for the purpose of mass distribution and making money is the definition of SELLING OUT) it's still my job as her parent to not subject her to imagery like "come and drink it up from my fertility" and "drink my juice young love chug-a-lug me."

I won't apologize for having standards. As a matter of fact, if more parents had higher standards the game venders wouldn't have to be telling you what you can and can't buy according to a tiny rating box some suit slapped on the cover. I won't have to shield my kids from the ways of the world for long, but I'd be a bad parent if I didn't give them a slow exposure over their young lives.

Wrapping it up:

We won't be getting Rock Band 2. Sure, I believe what I believe. But part of good parenting is compromise. My wife feels strongly about this issue, and our policy is generally to respect the wishes of the more cautious parent at any given time. Since we both come from different backgrounds, I think this helps us cover a lot of bases.

I think our daughter's life will be just as fulfilled without Rock Band 2 in it, so it is no loss there. Plus I'll still get to play it at Anand's house, so I'm not missing out on anything either.

Certainly we aren't trained in child psychology or anything. But as parents we still need to consider all this stuff. As more and more technology enters the home, the impact this has on young children will only become more relevant. We don't have all the answers, but we do try and carefully consider these issues.

But what do you guys think?

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  • crimson117 - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link

    In the end, the parents know best what's right for their kid at whatever age / level of development they happen to be at.

    I think she's lucky to have parents that think this stuff through :)
  • HavocX - Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - link

    That is quite a sweeping statement. Do you really claim that it is impossible for someone else to know better what is right for a child? As long as you do not define "right" as whatever the parents thinks is best, however damaging it may be for the child.
  • DerekWilson - Friday, September 19, 2008 - link

    i think what he meant was that parents are in a better position to know what is best for their own children because of the amount of time they spend with them and love they have for them (and i think also because they know their family history and the tendencies of their family members).

    yeah, some parents are stupid. also some parents make bad decisions for their kids.

    but no one else has as much potential to understand and make the right decisions as the parents. i think when you become a parent you learn this pretty quickly. parents need to be the ones who chose what is right for their children (within the bounds of the law anyway).
  • Veng - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link

    Hey guys,

    I will admit that this is my first post here but I felt a bit compelled to comment.

    Rock Band 2 is a game. It's made to be fun and to allow people with little-to-no musical skill have fun being part of the musical process. With that in mind, it's also a way to get people who are ambivalent about music to become more interested in the process of making music and to appreciate it more.

    Harmonix is a company comprised of almost entirely of professional and amateur musicians - whether it be rock, hip-hop, classical, or anything in between. And the things that compelled them as kids to take up an instrument are part of the game. The idea of creating something for people to enjoy or to express yourself, like the people who provided music for the game, is readily apparent and translates very easily.

    I guess I can color this even more by saying that I work at Harmonix (though this is not at ALL an official response, this one guy's opinion) but I've seen so many people who have worked on or played our games take up an instrument where they thought they would never have the ability to do so before.

    The argument in regards to doing dishes is a flawed one in that no GAME is going to make you grind through hours of "boring" practice in order to have fun (unless it's an MMO). But to think that this "instant gratification" will lessen your daughter's potential love for learning an instrument is doing her a disservice.

    Would you ban any and all sports game for fear that she will never decide to be active, knowing that all that hardwork and exercise is ahead of her when she could just pop in Madden 2015 and be Tom Brady? Or that playing The Sims is off-limits because who would want to go through the rigmarole of actually living?

    At two years old, I don't think Rock Band would be quite the game for her anyway (physical limitations of having small hands and being smaller than the instruments). But with a "no fail" mode, she can engage in the game and learn that "playing" music is fun. Or perhaps watch her parents have a blast playing in a "band," forming associations that music can be more than a passive listening experience.
  • Choppedliver - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link

    Anandtech = PCTech

    ( Politically Correct )
  • webstorm1 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link

    One thing that hasn't been mentioned... Playing the drums of Rock Band on expert, is extremely simlar to playing a real set of drums. Personally, I don't have the experience to back that up, but I've heard this more than once and heard quite a few anecdotal stories of drummers sitting down with the game and starting on expert. The only issue is that the timing is not the same. When I played the first time it was with my cousin, who fits the story exactly. He's a drummer and was able to start on the hardest level.

    Now, beleiving that a 2 year old may not differentiate between a real guitar and guitar controller seems possible, but I'd like a psyhcologist to chime in before I make that huge of a leap. I've played on the computer since Zork on a monochrome screen and every console ever made including coleco and intellivision as well as the Turbografix 16, 3do, and Neo Geo, and atari Jaguar. I was born in 77, and have had quite a few more experiences with gaming than anyone younger ever possibly could. The only difference between my experiences then, and your children's now is the look of the controller and the games. I played sports all through high school and junior high for the school and backyard sports as well so my love of actually playing hockey, tennis, football, and soccer wasn't diminished by the availablility of fake versions.

    You are assuming that a 2 year old can't tell the difference between a guitar shaped controller with buttons and a strum bar and a real guitar with strings and a resonance chamber. There are many reason to limit video games, but the reason you've described just seems as far fetched as not swimming after eating to avoid cramps. I seriously have to call shannanigans on you for that =) You have a lot of other really good ideas about limiting the exposure to other things, and I agree with you. But I would be hard pressed to believe that even a 2 year old can't tell the difference between a game on a 2d television and holding a guitar and feeling the strings and the weight of the guitar as well as hearing the sound it makes when you strum the strings. If a young child pets a bunny and learns that it's a bunny, then pets a cat they will call it a bunny. Right up until you show them the difference between a kitty and bunny where the fur puts it in one category, then there are sub categories. Why would a guitar shaped controller be any diffeerent, (even though there are no similarities between the game and the real guitar other than general shape)?

    Also FattySharp nailed it, imo.
  • DerekWilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link

    yeah, the drums on expert are really similar to playing an electric drum kit. there are things you don't learn like how to use the bounce of the drum head or the kick pedal to assist you, and "reading" rock band music is nothing like reading real drum music (or standard musical notation for any instrument for that matter).

    so there's that
  • Laura Wilson - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link

    i agree with fattysharp, too, we should be careful of our reasons for censoring our children.

    as for not knowing the difference between guitars and rock band 2 controllers, you are right that there's no concern she'll confuse an acoustic. but there are some electric guitars out there that don't look so different... (it is kind of moot, though, because people learn guitar most often by starting with acoustic).
  • Fattysharp - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link

    Censorship based on age is a good thing in my opinion. If you feel the content is inappropiate for a 2 year, then not exposing them to it is a good thing.

    Censorship based on limiting influencing factors to push, force or "encourage" anyone at any age down a particular path because that is what you want them to do is not so much a good thing. It will often result in the opposit result that you are aiming for.

    As a parent you need to ask yourself "Am I making this choice based on what I want, or based on what is best for the child?" Parents too often place their own desire on children. Both of your answers are based on what you want, not want your daughter wants.

    While it will not matter much this time, it will matter later. Just remember to ask yourself if it is for your sake or your childs, and things should turn out fine.

    After re-reading this I feel I am speaking from the holier then you pedestil. That is not my intent, i just feel that the hardest choices we make, are when they are for other people.
  • BD2003 - Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - link

    I think Laura missed the point exactly when it comes to this:

    "I'm not afraid my daughter wouldn't want to pick up a guitar once she sees how fun it is to play Rock Band 2. But I would be amazed if she persevered with the real thing in the same way after experiencing the misleading rewards of the video game."

    That is all contingent on her playing eternally in "easy mode". I'm sure many have seen it before, but youtube is absolutely filled with videos of little kids absolutely destroying the hardest songs on expert mode - why are these videos so popular? Not because we are in awe of their ability to play a video game, but because we are in awe that children who are barely past speech are able to accomplish feats that most of us consider impossible and have given up even trying on a long time ago. The comments on these posts are littered with amazement by people of all ages.

    The important lesson these children learn is not that video games are more fun than real life, but that they can do ANYTHING with practice and perseverance, including things that adults simply can't or won't do because its "too hard".

    They say genius is "1% inspiration, 99% perspiration". If your child was to pick up a real guitar, the real key to success would be a belief that no matter how difficult this may seem now, the more I practice, the better I will get. No one will be able to tell them they don't have the "talent", because they already know the answer to the question "Can I do this?"

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